Forums - Capcom vs. SNK: Character Analysis and Opinions Thread Show all 173 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Fan Fiction Library (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=17) -- Capcom vs. SNK: Character Analysis and Opinions Thread (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=59276) Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:05:2002 05:07 PM: Capcom vs. SNK: Character Analysis and Opinions Thread EDIT: 4/20/02- Added a new activity: Discussing how any Cap/SNK charcater that's NOT in CvS2 would perform if they were actually implemented into the game. Welcome! As you may have guessed, this thread is for Capcom and SNK fans interested in learning more about their favorite characters from either company, whether those characters are in CvS or not. And what more exciting way to do this better than discussing how these two fine worlds should co-exist as if it were canon? Everyone is welcome to join, including these honorable mentions: Saiki, Siegfried, Clay, Ultima, FistsofFury, TiamatRoar, Neo-Rasa, Lantis ......... ..... and any other Cap/SNK experts I may have missed by mistake. [Heh heh, Sorry! ] * The primary thing we shall do here is share our thoughts on how the Cap and SNK characters would blend in together to get a better understanding of them. Naturally, this may include stating in-depth opinions on the Cap/SNK rivalries as well any potential rivalries you have in mind that aren’t presented in the games. However, when you elaborate on a good rivalry or match-up, please keep these things in mind: 1.) When you give your opinion on who would win in a fight, please be logical and reasonable. Even though you may like one character more than the other, the other one still has a chance at winning. And make sure you base your assumptions on how it would turn out on what you know about BOTH characters. 2.) NO CAPCOM OR SNK BASHING SHALL BE TOLERATED, as this thread is intended to help anyone who’s interested in the company that’s opposite to the one they’re used to, and I really don’t want to see a flame war erupt which could ruin the thread. 3.) Please be aware that people are not always clear on certain things regarding characters or storylines, and are sometimes prone to giving slight errors when talking about them. Don't let this annoy you. If you see an error, correct it anyway you can for that person's benefit. 4.) Remember, you can still talk about match-ups that have already been mentioned and spoken upon. * If you'd like to put your creativity at work, you can take any pair-up mentioned in this thread and create an intro with a behind-the-scenes scenario that best explains it. * You can take any Capcom or SNK character that's NOT in CvS2 and state your opinions on how they would perform in the game; as in, how you think that character would suck as a result of immense tweaking, or how the character would benefit greatly under that particular Capcom engine. You can also compare the existing CvS2 characters to their old Cap/SNK incarnations. * Another thing Azreal-sama brought up in Lantis’ “CvS Story FAQ” thread are the CvS2 character-specific win-quotes exchanged between teammates and the winner to loser quotes. There’s probably hundreds of them, so if you have any that are translated, feel free to share ‘em. This way, we can explore the kinds of relationships they could have toward one another. There’s already a FAQ at Gamefaqs with several of these win-quotes, just to point out. Okay? Now let's move on. I'll start by putting out the usual rivalries including some that I think are appealing, which you can state your thoughts on. Ryu and Kyo Ryu and Ryo Ken and Terry Ken and Robert Alex and K’ Chun-Li and Mai Mai and Maki Guy and Andy Zangief and Raiden Dan and Joe Dan and Ryo Sagat and Joe Sagat and King Sagat and Krauser Adon and Joe Adon and King Bison and Geese Bison and Rugal Morrigan and Nakoruru Felicia and Cham-Cham Haohmaru and Hayato Yun/Yang and Dong Hwan/Jae Hoon Rose and Chizuru Sakura and Yuri Sakura and Athena Sakura and Shingo Shingo and Sean Ibuki and Hokutomaru Dudley and Rick Strowd T.Hawk and The Griffon Mask Guile and Clark Charlie and Ralf Makoto and Li Xiangfei Birdie and Chang Hugo and Chang If I can think of anymore, I’ll post them. I’ll give my thoughts on each when I have the time. Remember to post any you might have. Posted by FistsofFury on 04:05:2002 06:37 PM: Re: Capcom vs. SNK: Character Analysis and Opinions Thread Dan and Joe If they met in a match, i don't they would actually fight. Joe has finally come across someone who could talk as much shit as he can, likewise for Dan. They'd both sit there and talk each other and scream really loud until the clock timed out Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:05:2002 08:13 PM: Hmm... lessee... I guess I'll take a shot Disclaimer: I don't know very much about SNK characters as much as I'd like, with the exception of a select few, so expect me to screw up, here, in many places for them. Disclaimer 2: I'll state where fights will probably take place, but I won't state the winners. I don't know enough about SNK characters in their fighting game format to be able to judge that (I know more about them storyline-wise than I know about how they play ) Ryu and Kyo Ryu is always looking for worthy challenges. Kyo... I honestly am not sure exactly -what- he does, besides be a hero ^^; At any rate, I'd be surprised if these two would even CARE about each other, though if they ever did, the most they'd do is probably get into a 'for fun' match. Dunno who'd win, since I'm not a fight analysis. Though... Ryu is much -OLDER- than Kyo, too. For some reason, I can't picture these two caring about each other at all, no matter how much people talk of a rivalry between the two simply for being company flagship characters. Admittingly, I don't know Kyo that well, though. Ryu and Ryo How famous is the Kyokugen Dojo, anyways? It can't be that famous if it's always on the brink of running out of business and going bankrupt, can it? So... I really can't see much reason why Ryu would care about Ryo, either And Ryo himself doesn't seem like the type of guy that would go around challenging a reknown martial arts master just to prove himself, even if it'd be in the name of advertising for his dojo. At least... that's what I can gleem from it. So... this is yet another meeting which I don't think would take place. Ken and Terry Ah. Now we're getting somewhere. Ken and Terry would be the type that always are seeking out more matches, so I imagine a match between these two could take place. It'd be on friendly terms, needless to say. Other than that, though, don't see these two really connecting with each other much. Ken's not a Justice fighter like Terry is for the most part (That is, Ken doesn't actively seek out and fight crime like Terry does, needless to say. It's not like he joined the SF2 tournament to help in taking out Shadaloo, for instance). Ken and Robert As rich Japanese family members, these two would probably know each other and be friendly friends or so. Doubt they'd be rivals though since they don't seem like they're really in direct competition, and Robert doesn't care about the fight as much as Ken, does he? I imagine they'd have for fun fights with each other rarely, but only very rarely (about slightly more often than Ken would get into a fight with Karin for fun, which... is very rare, I imagine). Alex and K’ Alex is... Ryu version 2.0, basically. A guy looking for great fights. K' is... just a guy trying to live a normal life breaking away from Nests, isn't he? Can't figure out why these two would care about each other ^^; Chun-Li and Mai ...ditto, really. Mai only exists to chase after Andy, it seems. Chun-Li, meanwhile, fights crime. Despite how they are the token females of their respective series, storyline-wise, these two characters have absolutely NO reason to ever meet each other and give a damn about each other. Mai and Maki Ditto. Mai... really doesn't do much Maki, too, is a crime-fighter (The way of Bushin and all). Guy and Andy Ah, lone wandering wolves. And both crime-fighters. I can see how they'd run into each other and probably get along. What else, I'm not sure. Andy... I really don't know as much about compared to Terry. Zangief and Raiden Does Raiden still work for Geese, last I checked? If Geese threatened Russia, these two could get into a fight as Zangief fights against Geese or something, but... Geese wasn't nearly as -global- as Shadaloo, last I checked, so I really can't picture Zangief ever having to oppose Geese and thus fighting against Raiden unless Geese went international some more. Dan and Joe Since Dan's dad was a Muei Thai fighter, storyline-wise, an author could conceivably BS up a reason why these two would meet without much difficulty. As stated previously, they'd probably both just scream at each other a lot, though Dan and Ryo Dan runs a Saikyo Dojo. Ryo runs a Kyokugen Dojo. Dan is an intentful rip-off of Ryo. ...need I say more? This would be pure comedy to the extreme as they sue each other's Dojos for copyright infringement or whatever else crazy antics you can think of. Sagat and Joe Is this after Street Fighter Alpha 3? By then, Sagat's stopped caring about being Muei Thai God and Adon's the new one, so I imagine Joe would seek out Adon first, since the public believes that Adon is now -the- guy to beat, even though that's not really the case (Adon only won over Sagat because Sagat was at his weakest, blah blah blah). I suppose though that there is a chance that Joe would go after Sagat to prove himself too, since Sagat himself is famous, but the real champion who holds the title, God of Muei Thai, in the SF world is Adon now. Sagat and King ...can't really think of a reason why these two would care about each other, storyline-wise, at all Sagat and Krauser Ah, two guys looking for great fights. They'd probably challenge each other and get it... or at least Krauser would challenge Sagat since Sagat seems to care mainly just about Ryu these days. Adon and Joe Ah, now we're getting somewhere. Joe would probably challenge Adon for the title, God of Muei Thai. This is one battle where I can call who will probably win, too. And that'll be Joe, since Adon really isn't that powerful (look at the SF tiers in the plot guide) and Joe is supposed to be near Terry's and Andy's level, and those two are really powerful in the SNK universe, so... New God of Muei Thai: Joe. Adon will not be happy. He's the vengeful sort... Adon and King ...how famous is King, anyways? Bison and Geese Shadaloo vs Geese conglomeration. The main thing is, though, would these two have a reason to -care- about each other? Despite how they have mutually exclusive goals (only one person can be the ruler of the world, etc, after all), I don't see these two getting into conflict with each other for a -long- time, contrary to crossover fanfiction belief. Bison is all about terminating his enemies who ACTIVELY oppose him (as opposed to will be a threat someday in the -far- future). The same goes with Geese. Geese and Bison don't waste time dealing with POTENTIAL enemies unless that enemy is right on their doorstep (IE, Shadaloo Cammy was a potential enemy because she was gaining self-conscious, even though she still wasn't an enemy, yet, Bison decided to take the initiative and terminate her. But she's a special case, because she was exceptionally dangerous to Shadaloo with her ability to control the Psycho Drive and was on Shadaloo's doorstep for obvious reasons) Geese has shown that he won't bother with you until you get in his face. Look at how Geese treated Orochi. Geese probably knew that Orochi wanted to destroy the world, but Geese had better things to do than deal with someone who may, in the far future (well, don't think anyone predicted Orochi would revive within a year to destroy the world), MIGHT be his enemy IF Orochi ever managed to revive. Neither Bison nor Geese bother dealing with potential enemies. Geese is mostly confined to South Town, while Shadaloo is mostly based in Asia, Mexico, Brazil... it has other things to do than concentrate on one town, no matter how powerful that town is. Thus unless some extraordinary circumstance happened, I can't see these two running into and confronting each other in the near future, sans possible small skirmishes and that's it. Now, that's a conflict, though. These two could conceivably decide to team up for some reason. I can see how they'd be able to use their resources to benefit each other. Then the question would be who would be the pawn and who would be the manipulator, and how big of a deal would it be? These two do team up in CvS series and SvC MOTM, I believe. Bison and Rugal Rugal's a loser who did nothing storyline wise but fight Kyo, die, come back to fight Kyo again, then randomly explode. Who cares about him? LOOOOOOSER. He'd probably try to take Bison's Psycho Drive then use it on himself and just make himself explode, then Bison will say "What the hell was that about? What a loser!" Rugal is a LOOOOSER. Rugal is a brat who never does his research and just grabs whatever power source he can, then ends up exploding for it, and this would not be an exception. Continued in next post Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:05:2002 08:30 PM: Continued from previous post Morrigan and Nakoruru Go to www.gamefaqs.com and to the Neo Geo Pocket Color Section, then check out SNK vs Capcom, Match of the Millenium, and the dialogue and story FAQ there. Nak and Morri are rivals in that game and have a storyline with each other. That'd probably be what Morrigan and Nakoruru's relation would be if the universes actually crossed over. Felicia and Cham-Cham Felicia's a singing star. Cham-Cham is some cute tribal girl who mainly just cares about food. Don't see why these two would really care about each other. Blanka and Cham-Cham/Tam-Tam would be a meeting that's more likely to occur, really. Haohmaru and Hayato ...don't know anything about Hayato. So dunno. Yun/Yang and Dong Hwan/Jae Hoon Don't see too much reason why these people would run into each other. Unless Dong and Jae went to Yun and Yang due to Y&Y's connections to the underworld. In which case, they -might- fight. ...damn, though, these four are practically mirror-images of each other, I thought. Rose and Chizuru Rose and Chizuru are two mystics who detect Doomsday and then try to go after the source. Thus Chiz would conceivably go after Bison and Rose possibly go after Orochi. Chizuru might want to team up with Rose, but as Rose has shown by her rejection of Guy, Rose don't play that way. Thus Rose will go off on her own to prevent Doomsday while Chizuru goes around gathering warriors and the relationship basically ends there, unless extraordinary circumstances were to occur otherwise that would force Rose to team up with Chizuru. The problem is, the primary difference between these two regarding their motives is that Rose believes she's the hero that must take down doomsday, whereas Chizuru sees herself more as a guide that must gather OTHER heros to take down doomsday. ...maybe Chizuru will gather up Rose, then Sakura and Yuri Would challenge each other to fight in a friendly match. That's the extent of it from what I can see. Sakura and Athena Ditto. Sakura and Shingo They'd rant to each other about their fandoms. And they'd also rant about how their fandoms always seem to ignore them. Shingo and Sean Ditto. Sean's fandom being Ken in this case. In this case, though, Sean's fandom actually DID agree to train him. Lucky Sean. Ibuki and Hokutomaru ...eh, maybe their clans would oppose or clash or something. Dunno. Dudley and Rick Strowd Dunno. T.Hawk and The Griffon Mask Thing is, T. Hawk has nothing to do with pro-wrestling or anything that involves being in the public eye, unlike Griffon Mask. T. Hawk merely fights for his homeland, while Griffon Mask fights for the publicity in order to inspire people and raise the public's spirits. Don't see why these two would care about each other. Heck, T. Hawk I think doesn't even -like- grappling. Guile and Clark Army people. Might team up for Great Justice. Charlie and Ralf Ditto. Not much more to say, really. These guys are on the same side, aren't they? That's about it, though. Can't really picture anything deeper than that. Makoto and Li Xiangfei Don't know enough about Li to judge ^^; Birdie and Chang Alright! Two thugs! Though... in order for them to meet up, it'd have to be insane coincidence though. Eh... just come up with whatever you can come up with for a meeting of two burly crime thugs who get bored easily. Hugo and Chang Ditto. Gill and Orochi Gill is the savior. Orochi is a messenger of the Gods. Gill will get mad at Orochi and say "When the hell did I appoint you to be my messenger?" then Orochi would say "Dunno" then everyone else would say to both of them, "FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, PUT ON SOME CLOTHES!" then Gill AND Orochi would both say "I AM GOD, DAMMIT!". After that, they'd glare at each other and fight each other to the death. My meetings Chun-Li and Blue Mary Both are detectives, so I can imagine that there is a chance they'd team up on some cases. Blanka and Cham-Cham and/or Tam-Tam ...'nuff said, really. The Dolls vs Kula and company (Foxy, Diana, Candy) Normally, people associate Juli and Juni with Mature and Vice. While the parallels are there, the storyline that would occur with a Doll Rugal-Secretary meeting would be kinda dull, I feel. Here, you get fun things like Kula talking about how the organization they work for is just trying to control them or other things like that. Several people say that Diana and Foxy were the next Mature and Vice, anyways. Can't really think of anything else Posted by FistsofFury on 04:05:2002 08:35 PM: Yamazaki and Vega This would be good. Both fighters are psycho. They love to see their targets/opponents in pain, they love to make others bleed, they love violence in general. If there was a tournament, these two fighters meeting would be inevitable. Of course, this fight would last a while, because both sides would be enjoying it immensely.....but in the end I think Yamazaki would win. Ryuji just has more techniques at his disposal that Vega does. And plus Yamazaki isn't as worried about his appearance as Vega is, so he would not be spending any time worrying about his face or anything, he'd just be going all out at all times, not caring what happens to him. Just my two little food stamps. Posted by Benor on 04:05:2002 11:56 PM: .....I see no matchup for Ryu and Terry. I must shun this post until you apologize. Posted by FistsofFury on 04:06:2002 12:12 AM: quote: Originally posted by Benor .....I see no matchup for Ryu and Terry. I must shun this post until you apologize. Ryu and Terry They'd fight.....obviously. Both Ryu and Terry live for the battle, and they both love facing strong opponents. So naturally they would challenge each other. Of course it would not be a vandetta type fight, more like something between old friends. The winner? I think Ryu and Terry are pretty durn equal with each other......so would basically come down to who has more stamina. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:06:2002 12:52 AM: quote: Originally posted by FistsofFury Ryu and Terry They'd fight.....obviously. Both Ryu and Terry live for the battle, and they both love facing strong opponents. So naturally they would challenge each other. Of course it would not be a vandetta type fight, more like something between old friends. The winner? I think Ryu and Terry are pretty durn equal with each other......so would basically come down to who has more stamina. Terry may also like to face strong opponents, but he doesn't quite devote himself that much to fighting since he takes time off as a role model to little kids and takes care of Rock, so I find it hard for him to keep up with Ryu. These two would fight each other if they met, of course. One good scenario I could of think of for this is Terry befriending Ken and hearing about Ryu and his past experiences with him. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:06:2002 12:54 AM: Time to throw in my take on the rivalries I brought up. Ryu and Kyo Ryu is the only one out of the two who enjoys meeting new challengers, so I agree that Kyo wouldn't want any business with him. In a tournament, I could imagine that they'd both give it their all if they were facing each other. Who wins, though, is tough to call. Ryu and Ryo In one of Ryu's CvS2 winner-to-loser quotes, he tells Yuri that fighting styles that can be learned cheerfully are victorious, or something like it, and says she'll soon definitely become stronger. With this view of Kyokugen-Karate, I can imagine him wanting to meet Ryo and challenge him to a friendly test of strength and skill. Ryo could certainly get a good warm-up through fighting him, but I think Ryu would win because he's simply more powerful, more or less equal to Kyo so to speak. Ken and Terry Yep, these two would get along just fine if they met. Terry likes to seek new challenges and it'd be quite an honor to face the US Martial Arts Champion. Terry would most likely win though, because Ken has other important aspects of his life, such as his family and business, that soften him up. Ken and Robert Two very powerful businessmen and both are good at fighting. I think Ken and Robert take pride in this, and they might spar a round or two in the same manner you go to a bar with a friend to get drunk and play pool. Robert might win this fight because he follows Kyokugen-Karate more strictly then Ken follows Ansatsu-ken, and he doesn't have as many personal obstacles blocking his progress. Alex and K’ All Alex ever wanted to do was beat the crap out of Gill, but after that’sdone, he now wants to travel the world to face new challengers. K's only interested in taking out NESTS so they can leave him the hell alone, but even he wanted to fight Kyo to see who was better, or so I've heard. The Kusanagi flames are powerful, but how effective would they be if you lack the experience to topple someone who had actually inherited them? And Alex isn't on par with Ryu either. Neither one of these guys are as good as Ryu or Kyo as of now, so this one's difficult for me to decide on. Chun-Li and Mai Ha ha ha! I can just see it! In between the events of a tournament, Mai scrounges around looking for Andy. She spots Chun-Li and makes fun of her because she's not as beautiful as she is. Chun gets a little annoyed and then peeved after Mai keeps pestering her about Andy. They both fight, and Mai ends up getting her ass kicked a thousand times! I like Mai a lot, but she's just too reckless and air-headed to hold her own against Chun-Li. Mm hmm, too cocky for her own good. Mai and Maki Same applies here. Guy and Andy This is something I have been dying to see, but unfortunately, it looks like it ain't gonna happen. Andy is only slightly worse than Terry as far as I know, but he's still in the same league. And while Guy may be on the fifth tier of Saiki's tier list, it's solely based on the fact that he hasn't really accomplished anything in Street Fighter. Someone taught me a little while ago that you can't actually base a character's abilities solely on what the story-writers do with them. Guy took a big hand in defeating Mad Gear in FF1 and then Skull Cross in FF3, so that should count for something. Oh, and I believe he knows Ryu and has fought him before, judging from an official art from SFA depicting Guy with Ryu, both with robes on, and Ken in street clothes holding a bag with goldfish. If Guy and Andy ever fought, it'd be one aggressive match. I'd say I'd give this one to Guy because he's more calm and collective, and Andy is reckless and more persistent. However, Andy would probably learn something valuable losing to Guy, and then they'd go their seperates ways training for their next meeting as rivals. Zangief and Raiden Raiden is just a plain old wrestler now who's desire is to prove himself the best as what he does. In this case, a match between him and Zangief would very likely occur. This one, I'll give to Zangief. Capcom likes to elaborate more on what Zangief has at his disposal than SNK does with Raiden, and Raiden just seems to be there as the laughing stock of the crowd who gets beaten by Terry each time he’s in a tournament with him. Dan and Joe These two probably wouldn't fight it out because they have so much in common. They'd be each other's first choices for a partner in a tournament for sure, as seen in CvS1's ending. Dan and Ryo Dan runs a Saikyo Dojo. Ryo runs a Kyokugen Dojo. Dan is an intentful rip-off of Ryo. ...need I say more? This would be pure comedy to the extreme as they sue each other's Dojos for copyright infringement or whatever else crazy antics you can think of. Too true! Sagat and Joe Joe would probably want to target Sagat first before taking on that so-called God of Muay Thai. I think Sagat would accept the challenge if he wants to train harder for his match againt Ryu. Sagat is currently on equal grounds with Ryu, so I'm pretty sure he'd beat Joe under that one condition. This might be a more even match if it took place earlier around SFA's time. Sagat and King Just a simple warm-up match they might agree to, in which I must say Sagat would win. As I said with Sagat and Joe, King would have a better chance at winning if this were to take place around SFA's time. Sagat and Krauser Another good fight. Not sure who'd win, though. Adon and Joe You know, it's believed that Joe is stronger than Adon, but in SNK vs. Capcom for the NGPC, Joe is said to have LOST to Adon! WTF?!?!? And by Joe's own creators?!?!?!?! Um, I can't think of anything that would put Joe at a disadvantage. Not even his overconfidence, which Adon shows a lot of too. Well, I guess by the current timeline, Joe would definitely beat Adon, since Adon stopped training after he beat Sagat. If this fight were to occur BEFORE Adon beat Sagat, it'd be pretty much even. Adon and King Same applies here. Bison and Geese One of Geese's goals is to expand his crime syndicate to an international level, and Shadaloo might get in the way of that because Geese's interests would come into conflict with Bison's sooner or later. That I could picture them going to war over, but then again, forming an alliance is another possibility in which both men are constantly looking over their shoulders to see if the other is planning the first back-stabbing attempt before they intend to. This would be some encounter, all right. IMHO, Bison would win in a battle against Geese because he still retains some of the power that made him so dangerous during SFA, such as the Bison Warp and his Psycho Crusher super. You don't see him use these moves in SF2, but apparently the Bison Warp was one of the most missed on his move list since CvS1, so I guess Capcom thought it would be best to give it back to him in CvS2. And since Bison's CvS counterpart is a remake of his old SF2 self, this could possibly mean that Capcom is now hinting that Bison MAY have retained those same abilties from SFA in SF2, but just weren't thought of at the time of the game's development. Geese's knowledge obtained from the Scrolls COULD give him the edge over Bison, but if what I said about Bison's abilities were true, then Geese would have a hard time trying to hit him because Bison will be abusing that Psycho Power like crazy, teleporting around and screwing with his mind, and so forth. Continued...... Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:06:2002 12:57 AM: Bison and Rugal Rugal's already a rich and powerful criminal, but he desires more than making cash. He wants more power. He'll even go so far as to steal power from somebody if he really had the chance, which I doubt he could because he isn't of true Orochi blood, and there is no proof in any SNK game that he is capable of absorbing power as The Four Heavenly Kings are. Even if he was capable of doing this, he'd have to have a helluva good plan to pull something like that on Bison. If these two were to duke it out........ Ooooooohhhh, do my reasons above with Geese ever apply here! Morrigan and Nakoruru Probably the same as in SvC on the NGPC. Morrigan would cream Nak though for obvious reasons. Felicia and Cham-Cham These two look so suspiciously alike, that you'd wonder if they were really created by people that worked in both companies, or that one of them simply copied the design of whoever came first and made a few modifications. Felicia likes to meet new people to fight with as far as I can tell, and I think Cham-Cham would be a great player in her view. I think Felicia might even try to be friends with her, but I don't know enough about Cham-Cham’s character to guess if she'd ever go along with it. I don't know who'd win if they fought for that same reason, although my guess would be Cham because her pet monkey aiding her in her battles is really her brother, Tam-Tam. Haohmaru and Hayato Swordman from the past vs. Swordman from the future. Interesting. Oh I wish, I WISH I knew more about Hayato to make a good judgement. Damn! Hopefully someone else here will address this one. Yun/Yang and Dong Hwan/Jae Hoon A likely match-up in a tag tourney. Outside of fighting, Jae Hoon and Yang might get along well, while Yun just goes off goofing around and Dong Hwan is too tired to interact with anyone during the day. Overall, if they fought, I’d say it’s a game of chance. Yun’s more aggressive than Dong Hwan, but also more impulsive than him. Yang and Jae Hoon are the more calm of the two pairs, and I think they’re about equal in fighting skill. Rose and Chizuru This is a really good potential rivalry, because they are both considerably near the same level: Rose being the weaker version of Bison but still powerful, and Chizruru being the Mirror Keeper who’s destined to seal the Orochi away, but with the help of Kyo and Iori who are more powerful than she is. As was said earlier, they might interact for a brief period, which ends with Rose rejecting Chizuru’s help and plea to be her ally. I’m not quite positive who would win if they fought. Sakura and Yuri This would be a friendly match. I’m giving this to Sakura because her chi-manipulation is far greater than that of Yuri’s, even though Yuri has trained longer than her. Sakura and Athena A weaker user of the Ansatuken-art with incredible chi-manipulation and a dumbed down incarnation of a goddess with inherently powerful psychic powers. Sakura would admire Athena for her music at best and become amazed at her aura, and Athena might become friends with her because they both share the same interests in fighting. Athena is more powerful than Sakura, because it is believed that she is in a tier below Kyo and Iori. Sakura and Shingo A highly expected friendly dual that would lead to Sakura standing over Shingo’s carcass. Shingo’s natural ability comes nowhere near as great as Sakura’s for sure. Let’s not forget that he’s SNK’s Dan. Shingo and Sean Wow, two joke characters engaging in friendly combat. Ummmmmm, I’d say Shingo. I think everyone knows that Sean is often seen getting his ass handed to him more times than Shingo. Ibuki and Hokutomaru These two would be rivals at best. Ibuki’s the most original of the two and Hokutomaru’s the most stereotyped. Don’t know who’d win this one. Dudley and Rick Strowd Rick Strowd could conceivably win because Dudley relies too much on his pride to win. T.Hawk and The Griffon Mask Um, I don’t know what I was thinking when I came up with this one. Next time, I should use a better relation other than place of origin and play styles. I don’t know who’d win here since I don’t know that much about The Griffon Mask. Guile and Clark These military guys could probably be on the same side in a joint mission between the US Air Force and Heidern’s Assassination Unit. I think they’re both equal in terms of integrity and being the tough sons of bitches they are. Charlie and Ralf Same here, except Charlie seems to be more competent than Ralf, so I’m giving this fight to him. Makoto and Li Xiangfei I just thought it might be cool to see these two going at it, mainly because they’re overlooked characters and that they share the same attitude. Xiangfei could probably be a mockery to Makoto and piss her off so that they can both get into fisticuffs. However, Xiangfei is probably more arrogant than Makoto, and Makoto is certainly the tougher one. Birdie and Chang Hugo and Chang Yeah, you’d have to think of something humorous for these rivalries to happen. Birdie would probably lose to Chang because he doesn’t possess any real knowledge of martial arts like Chang does, but he could try to outsmart him. For Hugo, this could lean more in his favor because taking damage is what he does best, as implied by the official statement that he withstood the damage from Ryu’s Shin Shoryuken without getting knocked out. He’s even got the edge over Chang in speed and agility. Well, that’s my take on the rivalries I presented. I’ll get to the ones you guys brought up later, as well as some new ones I had just now thought of. I gotta relax a little. [Damn, that was so much insight on my part. ] Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:06:2002 02:12 AM: Now for the new added rivalries posted up. Chun-Li and Blue Mary Both are detectives, so I can imagine that there is a chance they'd team up on some cases. A good meeting. Not potentially a rivalry of some sort, but a good clash nonetheless. Cammy and Blue Mary would be an interesting rivalry IMO. They're the second most important female characters of their respective series, [No wait! Mai's not important at all! Oh well....., I guess you can say they're just more note-worthy females than most other female characters in their respective series. ], both have similar moves though Mary has more variations for each of hers, and they both work for a good cause: Mary as a private detective and Cammy currently as an assassin working for the British government. To see these blonde babes combining forces to stop an act of total espionage would be exquisitely remarkable. As for who'd win in a fight, this does seem like a close battle, but my mind tells me that whenever in doubt, just go for the assassin. Delta Red Cammy doesn't have to kill Mary to win, just cripple her badly enough so that she can't walk. Yes, Mary would try to utilize this strategy too, but Cammy's been altered by Shadaloo to be the ultimate killing machine and is perhaps better trained in combat tactics than Mary. Shadaloo Cammy on the other hand, could do this and then try to eliminate her. Blanka and Cham-Cham and/or Tam-Tam ...'nuff said, really. It sounds good, but Cham-Cham/Tam-Tam own this one easily. The Dolls vs Kula and company (Foxy, Diana, Candy) Normally, people associate Juli and Juni with Mature and Vice. While the parallels are there, the storyline that would occur with a Doll Rugal-Secretary meeting would be kinda dull, I feel. Here, you get fun things like Kula talking about how the organization they work for is just trying to control them or other things like that. Several people say that Diana and Foxy were the next Mature and Vice, anyways. Now you're talking! But does this include every one of the dolls [excluding Cammy]? Yamazaki and Vega This would be good. Both fighters are psycho. They love to see their targets/opponents in pain, they love to make others bleed, they love violence in general. If there was a tournament, these two fighters meeting would be inevitable. Of course, this fight would last a while, because both sides would be enjoying it immensely.....but in the end I think Yamazaki would win. Ryuji just has more techniques at his disposal that Vega does. And plus Yamazaki isn't as worried about his appearance as Vega is, so he would not be spending any time worrying about his face or anything, he'd just be going all out at all times, not caring what happens to him. I like the sound of this. The only real chance Vega has of winning is when Yamazaki busts his face badly enough to make him go beserk and slash like mad, but I still think Yama would win either way. I'll get to posting more rivalries up soon. I'm kinda lazy right now. Posted by milliardo on 04:06:2002 02:17 AM: Well, I do read several Capcom characters. I do not know about SNK, sorry!! As far as I am concerned, I might know that Ryu and Kyo are fighters searching for better. I know that Ryu is well known as the "Perminant Challenger" and Kyo known as "The Peace Fighter" or something like that. I do not know what result will this fight have. I bet it would be a close fight. I have seen several animations of Kyo's hyper combo's. Comparing with Ryu's Shinku-HaydouKen (Hyper Vacuum Fireball) and Shin-Shoryuken (Real. Dragon Punch) I would think it would come up a even fight!! In the list, perhaps I can suggest a new match: Evil Ryu against Blood Iori??? Evil Ryu and Blood Iori are considered the "Out-Of-Control" Fighters. What would happen if both of them actually fight against each other?? I do not have specific datas on Iori, yet I know that "Evil Ryu" was supposed to be "Sattsu-No-Haydo", in translation, it means the "Killing Intent FireBall". So, "Evil Ryu" should be named as "The Killing intent Ryu" As for Blood Iori, as far as I have known, he is the fighter in thirst of fight and blood. I do know know what effects does it have on Iori. I guess it probably would be a hard fight of all... What do ya think? Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:06:2002 02:46 AM: Evil Ryu and Blood Iori are considered the "Out-Of-Control" Fighters. What would happen if both of them actually fight against each other?? I do not have specific datas on Iori, yet I know that "Evil Ryu" was supposed to be "Sattsu-No-Haydo", in translation, it means the "Killing Intent FireBall". So, "Evil Ryu" should be named as "The Killing intent Ryu" As for Blood Iori, as far as I have known, he is the fighter in thirst of fight and blood. I do know know what effects does it have on Iori. I guess it probably would be a hard fight of all... What do ya think? OH YES! Thank you, I forgot to bring this rivalry up! This is as perfect a match as Gill vs. Orochi. Riot of Blood Iori doesn't actually fight for blood. It's just Iori losing control of the Orochi power within him and going out his mind, feeling the need to kill everything around him. The reason for this is that only half his blood is of Orochi blood, so he's not fully in control of his power as the eight Orochi clan members are. Symptoms of this include immense pain, coughing up blood and foaming at the mouth, paleness of the skin, and basically just loosing yourself and becoming a freak. Ryu does indeed become more powerful through Satsui No Hado, so with his current status in SF3:TS, Evil Ryu would be near Akuma's level (that is, the Akuma that's always holding back when fighting weak opponents. Akuma fighting at his full potential could destroy a whole mountain, and Evil Ryu can't be THAT powerful at this rate.) The way I see this one is that Evil Ryu and ROB Iori would try to kill each other on site, because that's all they could ever think to do. This match could go either way. If it were to end in Evil Ryu's favor, he'd probably try to finish ROB Iori with the Shun Goku Satsu rather than just plain knocking him out, only it wouldn't actually succeed in killing him. Gen survived this technique once by erasing his mind, heart and spirit, so when Iori's in the Riot of Blood, those three things are very well protected because he isn't his normal self. Also, one could assume that the effects of the Shun Goku Satsu would so painful, that the Riot of Blood would cease and Iori would return to his bitter self after regaining consciousness. ROB Iori could just finish Evil Ryu with any move. Posted by Nakkurusu on 04:06:2002 03:07 AM: quote: Originally posted by Grenade Falcon Riot of Blood Iori doesn't actually fight for blood. It's just Iori losing control of the Orochi power within him and going out his mind, feeling the need to kill everything around him. The reason for this is that only half his blood is of Orochi blood, so he's not fully in control of his power as the eight Orochi clan members are. Symptoms of this include immense pain, coughing up blood and foaming at the mouth, paleness of the skin, and basically just loosing yourself and becoming a freak. ACK! No. That's Leona's problem! Iori's clan made a pact with the Orochi clan to try and become more powerful than the Kusanagi clan. Orginally they both had regular colored flames, but after the pact Iori's clan became purple. Iori's caln was jealous of the Kusanagis, and the Kusanagis were mad that they were once friends and they sold themselves to Orochi. etc, etc, etc. King of Fighters etc. etc. Leona's dad was one of the "8 heads" she's the half-blooded Orochi. Posted by milliardo on 04:06:2002 03:09 AM: quote: Originally posted by Grenade Falcon OH YES! Thank you, I forgot to bring this rivalry up! This is as perfect a match as Gill vs. Orochi. Riot of Blood Iori doesn't actually fight for blood. It's just Iori losing control of the Orochi power within him and going out his mind, feeling the need to kill everything around him. The reason for this is that only half his blood is of Orochi blood, so he's not fully in control of his power as the eight Orochi clan members are. Symptoms of this include immense pain, coughing up blood and foaming at the mouth, paleness of the skin, and basically just loosing yourself and becoming a freak. Ryu does indeed become more powerful through Satsui No Hado, so with his current status in SF3:TS, Evil Ryu would be near Akuma's level (that is, the Akuma that's always holding back when fighting weak opponents. Akuma fighting at his full potential could destroy a whole mountain, and Evil Ryu can't be THAT powerful at this rate.) The way I see this one is that Evil Ryu and ROB Iori would try to kill each other on site, because that's all they could ever think to do. This match could go either way. If it were to end in Evil Ryu's favor, he'd probably try to finish ROB Iori with the Shun Goku Satsu rather than just plain knocking him out, only it wouldn't actually succeed in killing him. Gen survived this technique once by erasing his mind, heart and spirit, so when Iori's in the Riot of Blood, those three things are very well protected because he isn't his normal self. Also, one could assume that the effects of the Shun Goku Satsu would so painful, that the Riot of Blood would cease and Iori would return to his bitter self after regaining consciousness. ROB Iori could just finish Evil Ryu with any move. Oh really? I do not know about that!! True, Evil Ryu would probably finish Blood Iori with Shun-Goku-Satsu (Raging Demon/Sudden Death Attack), however, in my opinion, Blood Iori may have power to destroy Evil Ryu with a specific of time consumed. Well, in my fan fiction, my outline of "Evil Ryu" may be more powerful than you may have described, here, I will simply keep it in regular Capcom VS SNK's power balance... I would consider this fight a "Out of Control" battle, it would be better if nobody is watching both of them fighting. Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:06:2002 03:22 AM: Why must people base Andy Bogard's character, ability, and potential solely on his FF1 storyline and the animes? Why do people not realize yet that post KoF'97, Iori and Leona are in control of Orochi-ness? Also Orochi would absolutely wipe the floor with Gill, going by the eastern philosophies Orochi is based on it's not just sucking away your ki or whatever, it's literally eating your sole in the process, and anything you do other than be a Kusanagi/Yata/Hakkeshu working together is just going to make it more powerful. Posted by FINAL SHOWDOWN on 04:06:2002 03:42 AM: i think kim and balrog(boxer) should be rivals. i mean you got like good against evil and kick against punchs ect.... also about the evil ryu, rob iori...if anybody has played the ngpc version, there rivals and its pretty funny there dialoge in it.....they sorta just grunt and moan at each other....and alot of... ".....?" "whooo....." "err......" "....." ".." "." "who....?" type stuff its pretty funny. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:06:2002 04:22 AM: Bleh. Orochi. Sigh. Every time someone brings up Orochi fightng someone else, it all boils down to dumb pointless simplistic stuff like Orochi blowing up the entire world or the fact that only Kusanagi flames could hurt Orochi. Bleh. That's no fun-_- Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:06:2002 04:28 AM: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar Bleh. Orochi. Sigh. Every time someone brings up Orochi fightng someone else, it all boils down to dumb pointless simplistic stuff like Orochi blowing up the entire world or the fact that only Kusanagi flames could hurt Orochi. Bleh. That's no fun-_- That's why it's stupid to involve Orochi in these "discussions" in the first place. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:06:2002 04:38 AM: Nakkurusu: I was only describing the Riot-of-Blood itself. I just forget to include the fact that the Yagamis made the blood pact, but maybe I didn't have to because Iori still has Orochi blood in his veins. Without it, why WOULD he have gone into the ROB? Why must people base Andy Bogard's character, ability, and potential solely on his FF1 storyline and the animes? Hey, hey, we're just speculating on what we know about the characters, or at least what we THINK we know about them. I know that I for one didn't take anything straight out of the FF animes, just anything I can remember being said on these forums that might actually count for something. If you want to correct something I or anyone else said about Andy, or add something more to it, then please, do so. Correcting mistakes IS another thing this thread was made for, you know. Why do people not realize yet that post KoF'97, Iori and Leona are in control of Orochi-ness? You misunderstood. I was describing only the Riot of Blood itself, not Iori and Leona's Orochi-ness. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the term "control" in the subject, but instead stated it as something like, "Iori is not of TRUE Orochi blood, therefore he is vulnerable to the ROB when encountering a more powerful individual who can force him into it". Also Orochi would absolutely wipe the floor with Gill, going by the eastern philosophies Orochi is based on it's not just sucking away your ki or whatever, it's literally eating your sole in the process, and anything you do other than be a Kusanagi/Yata/Hakkeshu working together is just going to make it more powerful. Everything you said about Orochi was correct, but Gill is far more extraordinary than you're giving him credit for. In Shin Akuma's SF3: DI ending, which never actually happened, Gill survives the Shun Goku Satsu, a technique that attacks the soul and sends its victims to hell, whether that person is sin-free or not. And Gill's presence is part of a prophecy made by members of his secret organization during ancient times. In fact, any gentically altered member of the occult could've gained that godly power. The new "messiah" was only determined on who was strong enough to prove himself superior against the others in terms of strength and potential, and Gill just happened to be the one who came out on top. And so he will remain on Earth until his task is completed. Understand that this does not mean Gill can destroy Orochi. I just don't think Orochi can destroy Gill either, and that's why I thought I should bring it up as a good rivalry. So people can actually see Gill's power for what it truly is and that he is not the joke boss everyone makes him out to be. Bleh. Orochi. Sigh. Every time someone brings up Orochi fightng someone else, it all boils down to dumb pointless simplistic stuff like Orochi blowing up the entire world or the fact that only Kusanagi flames could hurt Orochi. Bleh. That's no fun-_- That's why it's stupid to involve Orochi in these "discussions" in the first place. All right look, now that I'm through with my OPINION on the matter, I would like to have Orochi dropped before things go way outta hand in a thread with a whole different purpose than the shitty "Who would win: Capcom or SNK?" threads that you're thinking about. Okay? I made this thread so we could all have fun learning some new things, and I don't want to see any further commotion over an apparent mistake that I made. Posted by Smiley on 04:06:2002 05:09 AM: Haohmaru and Hayato since no one ELSE seems to play plasma sword i'll handle this one.. i THINK hayato would win. storywise there's no contest.. haohmaru's sword would probably break once it touces hayato's.... since one of em is metal and the other is kinda like a lightsabre... ANYWHO, haohmaru's just a samurai with a sword... hayato would wipe the floor with him. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:06:2002 07:42 AM: Glad that little disturbance is out of the way. Now what was I about to do? Oh, more pair-ups. (No shit.) Vega and Billy Kane Vega and Benimaru Kyosuke and Benimaru Cody and Terry Balrog and Heavy D! Posted by Nakkurusu on 04:06:2002 05:10 PM: Vega and Billy Kane Vega. Billy mabe be okay with his pole, but Vega has claws. Vega's also a lot quicker and nimble. And insane. The reason they might meet up is if M. Bisoon and Geese met up. Vega and Benimaru Benimaru. He's almost as good as Kyo, and Ryu. Also he'll take the fight alot more seriously. I don't see why they would meet up at all though. Kyosuke and Benimaru To test there lightning powers is the only reason they would fight. This goes to Benimaru for only two reasons. Experience, and the fact that Benimaru doesn't always rely on his lightining special moves. Cody and Terry Terry. Cody may have been even once in their first games but now, Terry has too much ki and isn't completely controlled by the fight like Cody is. Probably a random fight in the streets... (Ever notice Cody's moves are a little like Joe's, that could go to his advantage.) Balrog and Heavy D! Heavy D would win. They could probably meet for a boxing match. Balrog is stupid, and Heavy D! isn't. Heavy D! can control ki. Barlog can't. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:06:2002 05:52 PM: Let's not forget that Benimaru and Kyosuke hold their looks in high regard as Vega. That's another reason the three of them would fight each other, to see who the better man of beauty is. About Cody and Terry, This match is one of several Fatal Fury and Final Fight rivalries that someone thought up a while ago. Cody and Terry are both heroes with similar qualities, but they're different by the fact that Terry wants to live a happy life and Cody ended up in jail and only cares about fighting. I could just see Cody assuming Terry could hold his own in a fight just by looking at him and then challenging him. It's also unknown if Cody ever really got to improve himself after SFA3 to at least become as strong Guile or even Ken, though Terry would be my first guess on who'd win if they fought. Posted by Sho 2 on 04:06:2002 06:15 PM: How about: Gen and Yamazaki R. Mika and Raiden Birdie and Billy Kane Kurow and Kim Iori and Akuma Kyo and Akuma Hinata and Athena Hinata and Shingo Akuma and Haohmaru Ryu and Haohmaru Cammy and Yamazaki Hayato (Rival Schools) and Brian Battler(?)/Lucky Gill and Amakusa Ibuki and Hanzo Ibuki and Galford Kurow and Galford I'll tried and justify these but too (as in lazy, not drunk or drugged). EDIT: Here's more: Dhalsim and Chizuru Chun-li and Chang/Choi Chun-li and Kim Yun/Yang and Kim Yun/Yang and Yamazaki Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:06:2002 09:05 PM: Hey, hey, we're just speculating on what we know about the characters, or at least what we THINK we know about them. I know that I for one didn't take anything straight out of the FF animes, just anything I can remember being said on these forums that might actually count for something. If you want to correct something I or anyone else said about Andy, or add something more to it, then please, do so. Correcting mistakes IS another thing this thread was made for, you know. Yes I was going to edit corrections into this later in the evening but then realized I had to be somewhere at 7AM this Saturday morning. I got my priorities straight now though! 1) Video games 2) Girlfriend 3) Other crap Anyways I know you haven't directly referred to Fatal Fury anime, however this is wear Andy's reputation comes from for most people indirectly. If not then tell me where your read or heard that Andy is reckless/etc.? What just about everyone misses out on is that post-FF1, Andy becomes very focused and very disciplined. His having the willpower to resist Mai Shiranui until KoF'97 should be proof enough of his emotional and spiritual toughness. If Andy were still the unfocused martial arts psychopath from Fatal Fury: King of Fighters we'd still be seeing ingame pictures like this: http://rade.samuraishodown.com/fatalfury7.gif And reading dialogue like "Damn you! I've waited ten years for this you bastard!" in the games. This all ceased after FF1. Honestly, how can someone who is easily one of the top twenty martial artists on the planet, a qualified master of two very different fighting styles which he combined together to form his own, and already taken on and almost fully trained a CHILD while he himself isn't even forty yet possibly be considered reckless? He's one of the most focused and collected characters in fighting games. I understand your opinion about Gill and I hardly consider him a joke overall. I'm just trying to point out that everyone, including Gill is a joke compared to Orochi. Even Kyo/Chizuru/Iori are jokes compared to Orochi and won because of a combination of luck and destiny. God could beat Orochi, that's it. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:07:2002 06:13 AM: Anyways I know you haven't directly referred to Fatal Fury anime, however this is wear Andy's reputation comes from for most people indirectly. If not then tell me where your read or heard that Andy is reckless/etc.? Not sure. I must've heard that from one of many stupid SNK-Nazis/Capcom bashers that suddenly increased after the production of the CvS series, and I must say I regret ever listening to them if I did. What just about everyone misses out on is that post-FF1, Andy becomes very focused and very disciplined. His having the willpower to resist Mai Shiranui until KoF'97 should be proof enough of his emotional and spiritual toughness. If Andy were still the unfocused martial arts psychopath from Fatal Fury: King of Fighters we'd still be seeing ingame pictures like this: http://rade.samuraishodown.com/fatalfury7.gif And reading dialogue like "Damn you! I've waited ten years for this you bastard!" in the games. This all ceased after FF1. Honestly, how can someone who is easily one of the top twenty martial artists on the planet, a qualified master of two very different fighting styles which he combined together to form his own, and already taken on and almost fully trained a CHILD while he himself isn't even forty yet possibly be considered reckless? He's one of the most focused and collected characters in fighting games. Okay, I stand corrected. So currently, Guy vs. Andy would be a fight on equal grounds then. I understand your opinion about Gill and I hardly consider him a joke overall. I'm just trying to point out that everyone, including Gill is a joke compared to Orochi. Even Kyo/Chizuru/Iori are jokes compared to Orochi and won because of a combination of luck and destiny. God could beat Orochi, that's it. How much did you know about Gill to make that assumption? Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:07:2002 08:17 AM: The assumption I am making about Gill is that he is a physical being on this planet. That makes him slim pickings for something that becomes more powerful simply because kinetic energy exists. Posted by The Deadpool on 04:07:2002 07:55 PM: quote: Originally posted by Neo Rasa Why must people base Andy Bogard's character, ability, and potential solely on his FF1 storyline and the animes? Why do people not realize yet that post KoF'97, Iori and Leona are in control of Orochi-ness? Also Orochi would absolutely wipe the floor with Gill, going by the eastern philosophies Orochi is based on it's not just sucking away your ki or whatever, it's literally eating your sole in the process, and anything you do other than be a Kusanagi/Yata/Hakkeshu working together is just going to make it more powerful. Muahah Orochi eats your SOLES Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:07:2002 09:38 PM: That's why only characters with really tight shoes like Chizuru/Kyo/Iori can stand a chance. Posted by Psycho Power J on 04:08:2002 01:36 AM: Does anyone want to include the Darkstalkers? Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:08:2002 07:33 AM: The only Darkstalkers characters mentioned so far were Morrigan and Felicia, who I paired with Nakoruru and Cham-Cham. Another likely pair-up I can think of involving a DS character would be Bishamon and Haohmaru, but there isn't a whole lot I can say about it. Bishamon's a blood-thristy samurai in cursed armor and Haohmaru just happens to be a guy looking for people to fight. A DS character would especially catch his interest. I'm not sure who'd win between them though. It's kind of hard to find a good SNK match for the rest of the DS characters, but if you have any other good ones, throw them out on the table. Anyway, I've noticed there hasn't been a lot of talk about the pair-ups that were already covered. People, remember, you can still express whatever feelings/disagreements you may have about Cap/SNK rivalries already mentioned. It's important to know that our say doesn't exactly seal the deal on each of them. Posted by Darkstalker on 04:08:2002 08:18 AM: Shingo vs Sakura Here's a misconception I think many people hold. Shingo technically, should NOT be weaker than Sakura. Shingo was not taught directly by Kyo, same as Sakura isn't taught directly by Ryu. They saw their mentors moves and have tried to emulate them as nearly as possible. And they have succeeded in emulating them, or at least making their own variation of them (RED Kick into Shingo Kick, 5-hit Dragon Punch). Therefore, I think both of them are pretty darn equal. ^_^ Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:08:2002 08:27 AM: But Shingo can't manipulate flames, yet... Posted by Darkstalker on 04:08:2002 08:42 AM: Well, Sakura can't a perfect Tatsuumakisenpuukyaku either. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:08:2002 08:45 AM: Yea, but her chi manipulation is on the same level as Ken's. Can Shingo manipulate Chi? Admittingly, maybe he can but I don't recall hearing that he could. I don't know much about SNK character details like that, though. Posted by Darkstalker on 04:08:2002 08:50 AM: Kyo doesn't use Chi, so Shingo has nothing to work with. On the other hand, his physical strength should be way higher than Sakura's. Also, I think he's physically stronger than Kyo himself (since he trains like mad, same as Sakura). However, if I were forced to give this match to someone, it'd be Shingo because he also makes notes of his enemies moves and techniques, implementing them and knowing how to avoid them. That's why in the end, I think Shingo'll win, no matter how much Chi Sakura has. And before I forget, no, Shingo is NOT a Dan clone. He's a Sakura clone. ^_^ Posted by Psycho Power J on 04:08:2002 03:13 PM: Just in case, there should be no more Orochi vs. Jedah/Pyron/Berial pair-ups. The last one was bad enough. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:08:2002 03:53 PM: quote: Originally posted by Darkstalker However, if I were forced to give this match to someone, it'd be Shingo because he also makes notes of his enemies moves and techniques, implementing them and knowing how to avoid them. That's why in the end, I think Shingo'll win, no matter how much Chi Sakura has. Whoa, Shingo's that calculating? I didn't realize a teenage newbie like him could be so smart (Course, maybe he wasn't initially that smart and just developed over time. I don't know much about Shingo). Wow, guess he is a lot more powerful than people give credit for. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:08:2002 05:14 PM: quote: Originally posted by Psycho Power J Just in case, there should be no more Orochi vs. Jedah/Pyron/Berial pair-ups. The last one was bad enough. Well, it's clear to me now that anything so much as resembling an Orochi vs. Pyron/Jedah/Kouryu pair-up isn't wanted here no matter HOW you express it, despite the fact that this is only a thread about how we think they'd interact and not another poll on who'd win between Cap and SNK . So it's settled then. No more supreme entities. Any idea which Darkstalkers characters you want to pair up now, Psycho Power J? Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:08:2002 05:45 PM: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar Whoa, Shingo's that calculating? I didn't realize a teenage newbie like him could be so smart (Course, maybe he wasn't initially that smart and just developed over time. I don't know much about Shingo). Wow, guess he is a lot more powerful than people give credit for. I guess so. He doesn't have a winpose where he jots down some important notes for nothing. Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:08:2002 06:35 PM: It's kind of hard to find a good SNK match for the rest of the DS characters, but if you have any other good ones, throw them out on the table. I personally think some characters from the Samurai Shodown/Last Blade games would be good match ups for certain Darkstalker characters. Shikyo Murkuro ~ Lord Raptor Kubikiri Basara ~ Hsien Ko/Lei Lei Nakoruru ~ Morrigan Aensland was a perfectly good match up from MotM Shinosuke Kagami ~ Dimitri Maximoff It gets harder with the other SS/LB characters though because they're all portrayed as either normal humans that would get annihilated by the Darkstalkers or as demi-Gods that would annihilate the Darkstalkers. Unfortunately very few characters inbetween those two benchmarks come to mind. Anyway, I've noticed there hasn't been a lot of talk about the pair-ups that were already covered. People, remember, you can still express whatever feelings/disagreements you may have about Cap/SNK rivalries already mentioned. It's important to know that our say doesn't exactly seal the deal on each of them. I'm in the process of preparing a write-up of every match up posted so far along with who I think would win and why. It takes time however and there's a lot that has to be explained for each one, etc. One trend I tend to notice on here with a lot of people who are more familiar with Capcom storylines is that they tend to use the most current versions of the Capcom characters in these matchups for the purposes of determining powers/resources/skills but the earliest incarnations of the SNK characters. As a result I think if you're unfamiliar you should all play a mess of SNK fighters made in the mid-nineties. You'll get a much better insight into the characters after seeing their newer moves, poses, etc. (the best example of this would be Andy Bogard's stance and style transition from FF ~ FF3 ~ KoF ~ RBS). It can be hard to get this kind of insight for some characters with one game. Geese Howard is the best example of this since he's never had the exact same moveset/normals in any two games and goes through some major style changes in each game he's in (Capcom vs. SNK series not withstanding). Posted by tsj76 on 04:08:2002 07:24 PM: Hmmm...Been wanting to ask someone for a long time and seeing that this is a Capcom vs. SNK thread I figure I'll ask here. In a Guile vs Rugal match, what's with that statue of Guile before the match starts? Just in the event any of you happen to know. I know that this {CvS series) is not official storyline cannon, just want to know what they're talking about. Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:08:2002 09:12 PM: Before his death in 1995, Rugal Bernstein would kill time between running and international crime syndicate and living the high-life by entering full contact fighting tournaments, eventually running some on his own. He has a statuary chamber on the Blacknoah (his base of operations) similar to the Hall of Champions background in the original Mortal Kombat game where small monuments of his greatest foes are placed. In The King of Fighters '94 you can clearly see statues of Akuma/Gouki Fei Long, and Guile among them. Posted by Psycho Power J on 04:08:2002 09:46 PM: Here's one Darkstalkers character I'd like to match up someone. Jon Talbain. A martial artist were-wolf. Even if Talbain wasn't a werewolf, I'd bet he'd be a top-tier street fighter. Donovan and maybe Bishamon could go up against the SS/Last Blade characters. I'd like to see those two get into a sword-fight. B.B. Hood just won't be fair against the rest. She'd just shoot everybody. The rest of the DS cast would be better in a VS. series like MvC2. Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:08:2002 10:35 PM: They match B.B. Hood against Yuri Sakazaki in MotM. It kind of makes sense, they're both powerful fighters with cutesy facades. B.B. Hood emphasizes technological fighting while Yuri uses ki, etc. Jon Talbain could be a good match for Naoe Shigen. It'd be a fun speed vs. brawn style match. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:09:2002 09:37 AM: I can't help but pair Talbain with Galford/Hanzo somehow. I think Setsuna's another good match for Demitri, considering that he's a swordsman possessed by an evil spirit. I hear he's pretty damn powerful. Maybe enough to be called a Darkstalker himself? For Donovan, I'd match him with either Asra, another good guy who has a struggle with evil in his own self, or Amakusa. Also, I'm sure Anakaris could replace Donovan if he isn't paired well with Amakusa. Oh, and that BB.Hood/Yuri Sakazaki rivalry sucks IMO. Posted by Psycho Power J on 04:09:2002 10:02 AM: Setsuna and Bishamon! Two posessed swordsman duking it out would be cool. Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:09:2002 06:06 PM: Setsuna definitely qualifies as a Darkstalker. He's not a swordsman possessed by an evil spirit either, he's an actual demon. He was killed as he was being born during the chaos that errupted during the first Last Blade game. His spirit descended to the underworld full of hatred for all living things and for all deities that he should be cheated out of life when so close to beginning it. His hatred or all things not dead turned him into a very powerful demon. When all the lunacy of The Last Blade 2 occurs the demon escapes from the underworld and possesses his own corpse, aging it to adult hood. He then begins journeying around killing things. I do believe that he himself is physically defeatable though indesctructable. He is currently, for all intents and purposes, the Grim Reaper of the SNK universe. So I think Setsuna vs Dimitri Maximoff would fit better in this regard. Vs. Bishamon may be overkill for Bishamon. Posted by Sho 2 on 04:09:2002 06:27 PM: quote: Originally posted by Sho 2 How about : Gen and Yamazaki R. Mika and Raiden Birdie and Billy Kane Kurow and Kim Iori and Akuma Kyo and Akuma Hinata and Athena Hinata and Shingo Akuma and Haohmaru Ryu and Haohmaru Cammy and Yamazaki Hayato (Rival Schools) and Brian Battler(?)/Lucky Gill and Amakusa Ibuki and Hanzo Ibuki and Galford Kurow and Galford I'll tried and justify these but too (as in lazy, not drunk or drugged). EDIT: Here's more: Dhalsim and Chizuru Chun-li and Chang/Choi Chun-li and Kim Yun/Yang and Kim Yun/Yang and Yamazaki HEY!! Is anyone going to comment on this? Posted by FistsofFury on 04:09:2002 07:06 PM: quote: Originally posted by Neo Rasa He is currently, for all intents and purposes, the Grim Reaper of the SNK universe. One thing that's always been on my mind: Is Setsuna immortal? After all he is a demon just possessing a human body.....but still the body is just flesh. Won't it decay? So, if nobody killed Setsuna.....would he still be alive today? Posted by Psycho Power J on 04:09:2002 08:31 PM: Well, Oro has a human body and he's still alive, isn't he? Apparently, the more powerful you are, the less the effects of aging has on you. And since Setsuna's current body is a corpse, I doubt that would be a problem. He just needs to maintain it. Take a look at L.Raptor. If Setsuna qualifies as a Darkstalker, what about B.B.Hood? She's human, but she does have that Dark Soul. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:09:2002 08:56 PM: quote: Originally posted by Sho 2 HEY!! Is anyone going to comment on this? I'll try. Gen and Yamazaki Can't think of why they'd fight. If Gen were still alive to this day, he'd still be equal to Akuma. But since he hasn't been able to progress further in the SF storyline, Yama would win. R. Mika and Raiden Typical for a wrestling match. I'm going to guess Raiden would win this one because he's more experienced. Birdie and Billy Kane Can't see any reason why this fight would occur. And Billy owns Birdie. Kurow and Kim Kim saves the day beating a man responsible for brainwashing kids to do his evil deeds. No contest. Iori and Akuma Kyo and Akuma Now what would Kyo or Iori want with Akuma? And likewise, why would Akuma care about them when they're both arch-enemies of each other? I don't think I need to explain why Akuma would win if they encountered. Hinata and Athena I guess this could be the same as Sakura and Athena. Athena wins, hands down. Hinata and Shingo Ditto for Shingo. I don't think Hinata's good enough to compete against him though. Akuma and Haohmaru Haohmaru wants to better himself, just like Ryu. Fighting a man who looks like a demon would catch his interest, as he says in his intro with Akuma in CvS2. But I don't think these two would ever meet. Akuma might not think highly of someone who relies on a weapon to fight. Ryu and Haohmaru These two could get along just fine, but I don;t think Ryu's dumb enough to take on a master swordsman. Cammy and Yamazaki Another unlikely pair up. Hayato (Rival Schools) and Brian Battler(?)/Lucky Don't know much about Hayato to comment. Gill and Amakusa Don't know a whole lot about Amakusa, but I think Gill would win. The guys a god for pete-sakes. Ibuki and Hanzo Ibuki and Galford Would Ibuki even care about Hanzo and Galford? Kurow and Galford WTF? Dhalsim and Chizuru Chizuru could recruit Dhalsim as an ally in preperation of some forseen disaster, as was said about Rose. Chizuru seems more powerful though. Chun-li and Chang/Choi If these guys have been disicplined enough already, then I see no reason why Chun would bother with them. And if Kim can kick both their asses, they're not going to be too successful with fighting her. Chun-li and Kim The one thing they have in common is that they both fight for justice. Kim could be the Jackie Chan that pops up from time to time as Chun's working on a case for humor's sake. As for who would win: I think this is even. Yun/Yang and Kim Would these guys care about each other? Probably not. Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:09:2002 09:43 PM: FistsofFury: From what I can tell Setsuna's physical appearance can look however he wants it too and that he can alter it like any Judeo-Christian demon can. This is illustrated by the fact that it just took him a short time to age his body to make it looks how it looks in the first place. Also it looks as if Gate to Hell is closed up (a second time, these heroes really need to get their act together) with Setsuna still on the loose. I do believe he would still be alive to this day. Gen and Yamazaki Both are very skilled in different ways. I see Ryuji Yamazaki winning this one simply because despite his lunacy, he has a certain patience about him. When Ryuji wants to kill someone or is after something he's not afraid to bide his time and just pop up when you least expect it. R. Mika and Raiden Raiden/Big Bear is more experienced, stronger, and knows more moves. I can't picture Rainbow Mika winning this one. Birdie and Billy Kane If it's SF1 style Birdie they'd probably be in the same band instead of fighting each other. Most current I would say Billy Kane would be the victor because, like many of the big names in the Fatal Fury series he has natural fighting skills and ruthlessness combined with extensive martial arts training. Kurow and Kim I think any Kim would take down Kurow handily. Iori and Akuma Kyo and Akuma Iori Yagami and Kyo Kusanagi want nothing to do with Akuma/Gouki, HOWEVER, Akuma's goal in life is to fight and destroy powerful opponents. So in a universe where all of these characters had access to each other Kyo and Iori would probably be viable targets for Akuma if Geese is still dead, Krauser is still reclusive, Terry is remaining in Southtown Secondus so there's no chance of him disappearing, etc. This type of scenario happens in MotM where Iori and Akuma are set as arch-rivals. Geese/Bison aren't known to still be around til the endgame, etc. so Akuma saves Iori from getting attacked from behind by Vega (claw) so that they can battle each other instead. I feel that Akuma would have to surprise Iori in some way to get a decisive victory against him. If Iori new ahead of time that Akuma was hunting him down he probably wouldn't let his arrogance get the best of him and be less hesitant about using his more Orochi-inspired abilities which would even things out more. How "available" is the Shun Goku Satsu? Can Akuma simply perform it whenever he pleases repeatedly? And where is it proven whether or not it affects people based on the amount of sin in them, the guilt they feel for their sins, or just a general hellbound affect equal to all people hit by it? I don;t think Ryu's dumb enough to take on a master swordsman. This is the guy who has to ask "Who are you?" Every he runs into Madame Bison. Cammy and Yamazaki This would probably never happen. If it did the techniques Ryuji uses are the natural antithesises for the grappling techniques Cammy uses so I don't see her standing much of a chance. Hayato (Rival Schools) and Brian Battler(?)/Lucky The USA Sports pair would win. Having just one of them fight would make it more even. Gill and Amakusa In the storylines (and according to several other interperetations of the historical events surrounding him) Amakusa Shiro is the anti-christ, not a god, so I think Gill may have his hands full. Ibuki and Hanzo Ibuki and Galford Would Ibuki even care about Hanzo and Galford? If Ibuki has even an iota of intelligence she'd realize that fighting Hanzo or Galford by herself would result in her death. I mean Hanzo Hattori is the most famous and most powerful ninja that ever existed both in the SNK storylines and in real life, Galford is practically his full brother. Ibuki is just Geki plus fan-service. The one thing they have in common is that they both fight for justice. Kim could be the Jackie Chan that pops up from time to time as Chun's working on a case for the humor's sake. WTF? Hon Fu is that person (since unlike Kim he IS A COP FROM HONG KONG WHO IS BASED ON JACKIE CHAN). They even cemented this by having him in her vs. Ryuji Yamazaki intro. Kim is a lot more serious than that. Anyways I think Chun can conceivably win but that Kim is more powerful overall. Hell by the time Garou rolls around his students are already super powerful but in Third Strike Chun is back to her trick turning outfit to pick up some extra cash. Yun/Yang and Kim You mean Yun/Yang vs. Jae Hoon/Dong Hwan? Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:09:2002 09:51 PM: From Akuma in SFA3 about the Raging Demon "The Raging Demon... Its power is unequal... It is not my fists, but your past sins that will kill you... The more evil your past doings, the more painful your death..." Initially, I thought Capcom of America made that up, because I always thought it was just hitting vital points, but as it turns out, it's that way in Japan, too. All About Capcom goes further and describes the hell thing and also, how Gen survived it. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the hell thing were in the Japanese version but Capcom of USA butchered the translation or censored it when it came to America Gen vs Yamazaki is pretty hard to compare, when I think about it. Even if Yamazaki knows a lot about how to properly assasinate a target, well... so does Gen :P They're both highly skilled and experienced assassins. I myself personally consider that a wild card match, myself. Yamazaki is probably very powerful storyline wise (He was a boss, after all, and he has Orochi power, is very skilled, beats up entire gyms, etc), but then again, so is Gen (Akuma's rival in SFA3, survived the raging demon, beats up Shadaloo members in his spare time, and NEVER was able to find -anyone- worthy of a death match with him, besides Akuma, before he finally probably died of his illness) The other match ups? Eh... I dunno. I have school coming up so can't stick around Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:09:2002 10:27 PM: quote: Originally posted by Neo Rasa Iori and Akuma Kyo and Akuma Iori Yagami and Kyo Kusanagi want nothing to do with Akuma/Gouki, HOWEVER, Akuma's goal in life is to fight and destroy powerful opponents. So in a universe where all of these characters had access to each other Kyo and Iori would probably be viable targets for Akuma if Geese is still dead, Krauser is still reclusive, Terry is remaining in Southtown Secondus so there's no chance of him disappearing, etc. This type of scenario happens in MotM where Iori and Akuma are set as arch-rivals. Geese/Bison aren't known to still be around til the endgame, etc. so Akuma saves Iori from getting attacked from behind by Vega (claw) so that they can battle each other instead. I feel that Akuma would have to surprise Iori in some way to get a decisive victory against him. If Iori new ahead of time that Akuma was hunting him down he probably wouldn't let his arrogance get the best of him and be less hesitant about using his more Orochi-inspired abilities which would even things out more. You make it sound like Akuma and Iori are perfectly equal, which they obviously shouldn't be. Akuma has already reached a godly status and is one of the top three existing characters in the SF universe, right next to Gill and Oro. Not only does he seek worthy opponents, but also those with enough potential to destroy him. That's why his only concern is Ryu. The stronger Ryu gets, the more powerful he'll be under Satsui No Hado. I think Akuma is well aware that Ryu will reach his true potential even without SnH, so it's well worth the wait. I don't think Iori would be of much interest to Akuma unless he knew what Orochi power was and knew of his experiences with the Riot of Blood. ROB Iori would stand a much better chance. How much better is uncertain to me, but way better than Iori's normal self. quote: How "available" is the Shun Goku Satsu? Can Akuma simply perform it whenever he pleases repeatedly? And where is it proven whether or not it affects people based on the amount of sin in them, the guilt they feel for their sins, or just a general hellbound affect equal to all people hit by it? There's nothing that indicates that Akuma's access to the Shun Goku Satsu has limitations, so I suppose he could just do it at will like the rest of his moves. When a person is victimized by the Shun Goku Satsu, his soul is sent to hell, regardless if that person's evil or not. However, past sins would make the move even more painful. The dialogue in Akuma's SFA3 ending where he kills Bison with the SGS is a key source of info on the nature of the technique. On another note, one must clear the heart, mind and soul to survive the SGS. Gen survived it by doing just this. But the user has to be prepared for the move as well, as Akuma is at risk of condemning his own soul if he is not prepared, so this could explain why he only uses it in death matches. quote: Gill and Amakusa In the storylines (and according to several other interperetations of the historical events surrounding him) Amakusa Shiro is the anti-christ, not a god, so I think Gill may have his hands full. Really? Then how did Amakusa ever lose?! quote: Ibuki and Hanzo Ibuki and Galford Would Ibuki even care about Hanzo and Galford? If Ibuki has even an iota of intelligence she'd realize that fighting Hanzo or Galford by herself would result in her death. I mean Hanzo Hattori is the most famous and most powerful ninja that ever existed both in the SNK storylines and in real life, Galford is practically his full brother. Ibuki is just Geki plus fan-service. Yeah, that's not so hard to figure out. My response to that though was meant in the sense of whether they'd simply spar or not. There's no reason for them to kill each other. quote: WTF? Hon Fu is that person (since unlike Kim he IS A COP FROM HONG KONG WHO IS BASED ON JACKIE CHAN). They even cemented this by having him in her vs. Ryuji Yamazaki intro. Kim is a lot more serious than that. I know, but unlike Jackie, Hon Fu succeeds in getting his ass whipped! This is even cemented in the Chun-Li vs. Yamazaki intro! So, I personally think Kim should play the part more than him. quote: Anyways I think Chun can conceivably win but that Kim is more powerful overall. Hell by the time Garou rolls around his students are already super powerful but in Third Strike Chun is back to her trick turning outfit to pick up some extra cash. You think THAT'S why she's in Third Strike? There wasn't even a tournament being hosted in that game. Only in Double Impact does it occur, which officially replaces New Generation. In Third Strike, Chun-Li's investigating a case involving missing children, all of which she kicks Urien's ass to save. She then takes the responsibility to train them all in martial arts as her disciples. Her CvS2 ending even hints at this. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:10:2002 01:46 AM: A thing about Akuma is... the guy can destroy an entire island with a stomp. He can destroy an entire mountain with a single technique. He is so strong that he can withstand the pressures of deep ocean and hold his breath and train down there for a very long time, then destroy an entire submarine and a boat with just one move! Akuma's power is definately not to be underestimated. He doesn't even need the Shun Goku Satsu to obliterate an opponent. Posted by FINAL SHOWDOWN on 04:10:2002 04:19 AM: he is to powerfull for hahomaru to handle..... Posted by Psycho Power J on 04:10:2002 05:36 AM: Yeah, anyone who is still in the human range is a joke compared to Akuma. He is just too strong. Here's an interesting pair-up: Hinako vs. E. Honda. It would be interesting how these two will interact. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:10:2002 03:46 PM: Hinako and E.Honda This reminds me of Sakura and Ryu. Yeah, I think these two would be likely to spar with each other. E.Honda wins this one, no doubt. He's probably the best Sumo Wrestler alive. Okay, here's an interesting and highly unexpected match up. I'll let you guys voice your opinons on this first, but here it is: Metro City and Southtown Posted by Lantis on 04:10:2002 04:16 PM: Southtown, no contest. Southtown has more "capable" fighters, warriors who can wield chi, not some common thugs who can't even defeat 3 fighters not even with a gang-up! And besides, Southtown was ruled by the great Geese Howard, a man who knew how to inspire fear, control the strings if power from behind the curtains, and eliminate any possible opposition without bringing up a ruckus (now Kain R. Heinlein is in charge, but he is still more than capable). Now, what kind of an organization is Mad Gear which has lousy bosses, useless minions, and agents with their own personal agenda (Hugo, Sodom, Rolento)? No union + no cooperation + no man capacity = failure. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:10:2002 05:38 PM: Mad Gear and Metro City is basically filled with chaos and destruction. It's not meant to fight a war against anyone, really. Geese is far more calculating about the outside world and then some, and... yea, Lantis pretty much summed it up Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:10:2002 06:52 PM: Mad Gear and Metro City is basically filled with chaos and destruction. It's not meant to fight a war against anyone, really. Shit, I thought that's how life was in Southtown? Posted by Clay on 04:10:2002 07:18 PM: quote: Originally posted by Neo Rasa Yes I was going to edit corrections into this later in the evening but then realized I had to be somewhere at 7AM this Saturday morning. I got my priorities straight now though! 1) Video games 2) Girlfriend 3) Other crap Of course… it’s so simple!! Why didn’t I realize this before?!?! School and work should never trump video games. Now that I have come to see the error of my ways, I implore you to teach me oh wise one!! Anyway, I usually try to stay out of crossover arguments, but everybody here seems to be understanding enough to avoid flaming, so here goes (I’ll just comment on a select few): Akuma/Gouki vs. Kyo or Iori To be honest, I think that Akuma beats down on the other two, possibly at the same time. There really isn’t too much of a comparison, especially if we’re talking about post-3s Gouki. Also, Akuma has access to the SGS anytime he desires to use it, just like any other technique (obviously he must get within grappling range of his opponent to do so). The attack will kill anybody, regardless of whether they are “good” or “evil”, however, it is not infallible. Gen is the only one who has actually survived the move, but 2i shows that Gill is able to as well. A few other people may be able to withstand it, but that would merely be speculation. quote: This is the guy who has to ask "Who are you?" Every he runs into Madame Bison. Hey… that was kind of a cheap shot. Technically, Ryu only meets Vega/M.Bison once during the Zero segment, that’s why he asks the same question each time. Like Benor, I also wonder why so many people overlook a fight between Ryu and Terry. I would love to see this, it wouldn’t even matter who won. Imo, this is a much better match up than Ryu and Kyo anyway. I’m not saying that the latter is a bad fight, but the former is a much more interesting one. Gen vs. Yamazaki I think that this is a cool match, simply because they’re such a lethal combination. In a perfect world, I would pick Gen, hands down. Unfortunately, this isn’t a perfect world and Gen has that illness to deal with as well as his age. Tough call. Random I’d take Sagat over Joe and King, but I’d like to here some thoughts on Sagat and Krauser. That one intrigues me. I’d like to see Adon get updated again, but until he does, I’m pretty sure that Joe would own him (making him both Japan and Thailand’s reigning champ). There are a few others that I would like to address, but I don’t really have the time (when will I learn that video games = Number 1 priority?). As for the battle of the two cities, the Southtown crew makes the Metro City cast look like chumps in comparison. Everything in Southtown is bigger, badder, and just plain better. There are a couple of Metro City fighters who can step up, but those are few and far between. -Clay Posted by The Deadpool on 04:10:2002 07:45 PM: Im positive that Shingo was taught by Kyo a little bit. He taught him in exchange for him doing his homework or something. And in the Kof01 ending Saiysu ends up teaching Shingo. Shingo even teamed up with a lot of strong teamates and helped them get to the finals and stuff to. Shing > Sakura Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:10:2002 08:57 PM: You make it sound like Akuma and Iori are perfectly equal, which they obviously shouldn't be. The thing is if you were to make a list of just the most powerful characters in KoF Iori Yagami and Kyo Kusanagi would absolutely be listed among them. Kyo isn't matched with Ryu in all the ___ vs. ___ games because they're both main characters. He's matched with Ryu because he REALLY IS THAT POWERFUL, and Iori along with him. If not Kyo and his friends wouldn't have been able to beat Rugal, Iori wouldn't be able to taken on Billy and Eiji (and later on Vice and Mature) simultaneously without breaking a sweat, etc. Akuma has already reached a godly status and is one of the top three existing characters in the SF universe, right next to Gill and Oro. Not only does he seek worthy opponents, but also those with enough potential to destroy him. That's why his only concern is Ryu. The stronger Ryu gets, the more powerful he'll be under Satsui No Hado. I think Akuma is well aware that Ryu will reach his true potential even without SnH, so it's well worth the wait. This status is irrelevant IMO for the purposes of this thread though because we're discussing SNK vs. CAPCOM, not SF vs. KoF or Akuma vs. _____. You have to take into account the powers and abilities of all the characters from both companies for this to work out effectively. I don't think Iori would be of much interest to Akuma unless he knew what Orochi power was and knew of his experiences with the Riot of Blood. ROB Iori would stand a much better chance. How much better is uncertain to me, but way better than Iori's normal self. This is Capcom vs. SNK though, and we're assuming that all of these characters are coexisting in the same universe. The entire King of Fighters '97 tournament was broadcasted all over the world. Akuma would be an imbecile if he didn't witness the properties of Orochi/Kyo/Iori/etc. like every other person on the planet did. Also, remember that Iori doesn't completely lose control of himself anymore and that he CONTROLS his Orochi-granted abilities much better than he did pre-KoF'97 but chooses not to completely give in to them. He's not stupid however, and if he found out that someone of Akuma's calibur were going after him he wouldn't hold back. When a person is victimized by the Shun Goku Satsu, his soul is sent to hell, regardless if that person's evil or not. However, past sins would make the move even more painful. The dialogue in Akuma's SFA3 ending where he kills Bison with the SGS is a key source of info on the nature of the technique. On another note, one must clear the heart, mind and soul to survive the SGS. Gen survived it by doing just this. But the user has to be prepared for the move as well, as Akuma is at risk of condemning his own soul if he is not prepared, so this could explain why he only uses it in death matches. So does the SGS affect even people who, like Iori as an example, are clinically insane? Does having an especially "complicated" or abnormal chemical make-up in the brain make the SGS more difficult to perform or increase the chance of it backfiring? -_- These questions would be easier to answer if the screen didn't turn blue during the move. Is it a physical attack that results in a metaphysical strike at the peron's psyche? Or is it a metaphysical attack that causes sufficient physical trauma to kill the person (going by the 'Dream World' belief of the afterlife that it's based on your most recent pre-death memories, so going through that much pain would literally make you "be" in hell)? Really? Then how did Amakusa ever lose?! Destiny. SNK deities just can't get a break. Yeah, that's not so hard to figure out. My response to that though was meant in the sense of whether they'd simply spar or not. There's no reason for them to kill each other. Well I could see Galford and Ibuki getting along and making good friendly rivals for each other. I'm pretty sure Hanzo just outright murders anyone who is hindering whatever he's in the middle of doing at the time. I know, but unlike Jackie, Hon Fu succeeds in getting his ass whipped! This is even cemented in the Chun-Li vs. Yamazaki intro! So, I personally think Kim should play the part more than him. I could picture Kim Dong Hwan in the part more, I mean Kim's just too serious overall, he's practically like The Punisher only he doesn't kill and has the ultimate smile. You think THAT'S why she's in Third Strike? She's gotta put dinner on the table somehow right? There wasn't even a tournament being hosted in that game. Only in Double Impact does it occur, which officially replaces New Generation. In Third Strike, Chun-Li's investigating a case involving missing children, all of which she kicks Urien's ass to save. She then takes the responsibility to train them all in martial arts as her disciples. Her CvS2 ending even hints at this. Right..."disciples"... Metro City and Southtown Riiiight... Simmons Axl/Slash J/Two P Bred El Gado/Dirk Damno Sodom Edi E. Abigail Rolento Belger Stray Maki Call Man Retu Carlos G. Oribore/Wong Who Arby/Fat Jack G Elias Bratken Dean Black Lucia Hunter/Face Cody Trixy/Goldy Mike Hagger Guy Poison/Roxy/Sid/Billy Eliza/Mary Phillipe vs..... Terry Bogard Andy Bogard Freeman Kim Dong Hwan Kim Jae Hoon Gato Hotaru Futaba Franco Bash Hon Fu Ripper and Hopper Kevin Rian Jin Chonrei Jin Chonshu Ryuji Yamazaki Billy Kane Blue Mary Geese Howard Mr. Big John Crawley Mickey Rodgers Jack Turner Marco Rodruiguez/Khushnood Butt Lee Pai Long King Ryuhaku Todoh Ryo Sakazaki Robert Garcia Takuma Sakazaki/Mr. Karate Yuri Sakazaki Psycho Power J: "Honda best man." (obviously he must get within grappling range of his opponent to do so). A weakness! I think Gen vs. Lee Pai Long is much more appropriate than Gen vs. Ryuji Yamazaki. It'd also be more fair to Gen. FYI Lee Pai Lon appears in the first two Art of Fighting games. He's an apothecarist and an assassin. He wears a monkey-ish mask and Wolverine style wrist claws while fighting. I could almost picture him and Gen getting along nicely though, hell maybe Lee can put together some kind of cure for Gen. Anyways Lee himself is VERY fast and while he doesn't have multiple stances the moves he does have are quite nice and show a lot of versatility. If you have access to Art of Fighting 1/2 he's worth looking into again. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:10:2002 10:13 PM: The thing is if you were to make a list of just the most powerful characters in KoF Iori Yagami and Kyo Kusanagi would absolutely be listed among them. Kyo isn't matched with Ryu in all the ___ vs. ___ games because they're both main characters. He's matched with Ryu because he REALLY IS THAT POWERFUL, and Iori along with him. If not Kyo and his friends wouldn't have been able to beat Rugal, Iori wouldn't be able to taken on Billy and Eiji (and later on Vice and Mature) simultaneously without breaking a sweat, etc. This status is irrelevant IMO for the purposes of this thread though because we're discussing SNK vs. CAPCOM, not SF vs. KoF or Akuma vs. _____. You have to take into account the powers and abilities of all the characters from both companies for this to work out effectively. That status is very much relevant for this thread. It has even been discussed before in the SF Storylines thread that being as strong as he is, Akuma could undeniably be a worthy challenge for the Darkstalkers characters, especially the ones you agreed would be a good match for the SS/LB characters that you mentioned. Kyo and Iori are in the same league as Ryu, there’s no question about it, and I know damn well that Kyo isn’t matched with Ryu simply because they’re main characters. That still doesn’t mean they have what it takes to stand up to Akuma when he’s using full force. To say that they could beat Akuma would imply that Ryu is on the same level as he is also, and Ryu certainly isn’t up to the challenge yet. Also, you are discounting the things Akuma has done in recent games that prove his power. He has destroyed a mountain with just one move in Double Impact, destroyed an island by punching the ground in SFA2, and withstood the deep pressures in an ocean before attacking a submarine and splitting a huge ship in half at the end of Third Strike. It takes lots of experience in extreme meditation and training to accomplish those feats (And believe me when I say LOTS of experience. I mean this in a way that you’d have to devote your life ENTIRELY to this kind of training to achieve god-like abilities.), and Akuma’s spiritual strength and stamina is given an even higher boost through extensive training with Satsui No Hado. To ignore this fact is just unrealistic. That’s far greater than anything Kyo and Iori have ever done. Not even the fact that they took part in Orochi’s defeat holds up to it. They merely won that battle because they were destined to in the end. And remember: Kyo never single-handedly beat Rugal. He would not have won IF it hadn’t been for the aid of Benimaru and Goro Daimon. This is Capcom vs. SNK though, and we're assuming that all of these characters are coexisting in the same universe. The entire King of Fighters '97 tournament was broadcasted all over the world. Akuma would be an imbecile if he didn't witness the properties of Orochi/Kyo/Iori/etc. like every other person on the planet did. Also, remember that Iori doesn't completely lose control of himself anymore and that he CONTROLS his Orochi-granted abilities much better than he did pre-KoF'97 but chooses not to completely give in to them. He's not stupid however, and if he found out that someone of Akuma's calibur were going after him he wouldn't hold back. He wouldn’t hold back, yes. But Iori is still not in the same range as Akuma, even if he is fully in control of his Orochi-abilities. Iori isn't very likely to enter the Riot of Blood with Orochi gone, but let's say that he still actually was. There's no denying that he becomes way more powerful in the Riot of Blood than he already is. It took almost everybody in the KOF ‘97 tournament to knock him out when he was in this state! But even as ROB Iori, he isn’t really guaranteed to beat Akuma. ROB Iori would be on equal terms with Evil Ryu instead. So does the SGS affect even people who, like Iori as an example, are clinically insane? Does having an especially "complicated" or abnormal chemical make-up in the brain make the SGS more difficult to perform or increase the chance of it backfiring? -_- These questions would be easier to answer if the screen didn't turn blue during the move. Is it a physical attack that results in a metaphysical strike at the peron's psyche? Or is it a metaphysical attack that causes sufficient physical trauma to kill the person (going by the 'Dream World' belief of the afterlife that it's based on your most recent pre-death memories, so going through that much pain would literally make you "be" in hell)? The Shun Goku Satsu is a technique that attacks the soul, not the body. Regardless if you’re good or evil, its victims are killed sent to hell. Literally. Your past sins would mean a more painful effect too, as demons like to feast on sin after your soul is dragged to hell. And yes, you'd have to be in the right state of mind to perform the move successfully without putting your own soul in danger. Riiiight... Whoa, hold on a minute! I didn’t mean who’d win between Fatal Fury and Final Fight characters if that's where you thought I was getting at! This is a thread for mainly discussing how the Capcom and SNK universes would co-exist, not just who we think would win in each match-up. What I was intending for the Southtown and Metro City match is, how would you compare them? (obviously he must get within grappling range of his opponent to do so). A weakness! Akuma would never do the Shun Goku Satsu unless he was absolutely POSITIVE that it would connect, such as after he were to beat his opponents badly enough to render them defenseless. But like Tiamat said, he doesn’t even need the Shun Goku Satsu to obliterate an opponent. Posted by Psycho Power J on 04:10:2002 10:43 PM: This status is irrelevant IMO for the purposes of this thread though because we're discussing SNK vs. CAPCOM, not SF vs. KoF or Akuma vs. _____. You have to take into account the powers and abilities of all the characters from both companies for this to work out effectively Akuma doesn't need status. He has sheer power. Psycho Power J: "Honda best man." I was thinking the same thing. E.Honda can propel himself through the air, mountains of flesh and all. Hinako can't do that. I'm interested if they would see each other as rivals though, but I think E.Honda is too easy-going to have a rival. Destiny. SNK deities just can't get a break. SNK's major storyline flaw. RYU: "What have they done to you?! KEN!" BISON: "Nice job, huh? Your friend is now the perfect exterminator, thanks to my suttle influence. Beating him isn't going to be easy!" RYU: "No, don't! KEN! RESIST IT!!!!!" BISON: "Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha! Save your energy boy, you're going to need all you can muster on the battlefield. And SNK's utter annihilation is the sole mission of his life! " RYU: "NO WAY! HE'S MY ....................... Okay! " GUILE: "Bison! I'm gonna give you a big hug, you lovable bastard! " I see you added Guile. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:10:2002 10:57 PM: And just to expand more on my last post, I'll copy and paste the updated version of my CvS2 character rankings from the SNK thread and my reasoning behind them. ---------------------------- CvS2 Tiers-Updated Tier 1: Akuma, Morrigan, Satsui no Ryu (Evil Ryu), ROB Iori Tier 2: Ryu, Sagat, Kyo, Iori, Vice, M.Bison, Geese, Rugal, Yamazaki Tier 3: Ken, Terry, Ryo, Athena, Benimaru, Nakoruru, Rock, Kim, Joe Tier 4: Vega, Guile, Chun-Li, Mai Tier 5: Sakura, Yuri, Cammy, Maki, Kyosuke, King, Hibiki, Dhalsim, Zangief, Raiden, Chang, Balrog, Todo Everyone else would fall under Tier 6, except Dan, who’s so weak and pathetic that he deserves a tier of his own… Tier 7! My reasons: Tier 1: As mentioned, Akuma’s already gained beyond-human statistics through Satsui No Hado, enabling him to destroy mountains, islands, and stay in the deep depths of an ocean. Morrigan’s obviously a demon with beyond-human attributes, so she should be above just about every SF and KOF character. I put Evil Ryu in this tier because if Ryu has greatly improved since the Satsui no Hado last awakened within him in SF1, one could imagine how much more powerful Evil Ryu would be if it ever awakened again in Ryu’s current state. Ryu may have already reached Tier 1 status if this should happen again, but he does not want to accomplish anything that involves giving into SnH, so it looks like it’ll take awhile longer for Ryu to reach Akuma’s expectations. Iori in the Riot of Blood, I don’t think I need to explain. It’s all there in KOF ’97. Tier 2: Ryu goes under Akuma due to his potential, and Sagat makes a better rival for him than Ken because they’re both equal in strength and power. CvS’s Bison is the same as his as SF2 counterpart, which is also equal to Sagat and Ryu. Kyo and Iori are definitely the best KOF contestants due to their family bloodlines. Geese would be at the same level as Bison, so I believe Ryu and Sagat would stand a fare chance against him. Rugal COULD be better than both bosses, but I don’t think he’d actually be a worthy match for Akuma, so he stays here. Vice and Yamazaki have been moved to this tier when I learned how powerful they truly are. They haven’t done much, but they can manifest Orochi power quite well. Tier 3: This league is nothing to scoff at, since it IS conceivable that they could beat the Tier 2 characters. They could put up a good fight with them at the very least. Ken’s only slightly worse than Ryu, so he belongs here with Terry and Ryo. Rock is at the young Terry’s level during Mark of the Wolves, and he might become more powerful as he gains experience over time as well. Benimaru, Joe and Kim come close to Terry. Nakoruru isn't really a warrior at heart, but is powerful enough to be matched with Athena. Athena SHOULD be up there with Kyo and Iori, but she lacks experience. She could conceivably give Ken, Terry, Ryo and the like a good fight, but it’s unknown if she’d actually beat them. Tier 4: Guile and Chun-Li really haven’t trained that much since SFA3. Vega is a top assassin and boss. Based on what I’ve read about Mai, I don’t believe she’s as good as Andy. If not due to her fighting abilities, it’s because she tends to be air-headed and reckless with her actions, which is why I feel Chun-Li would have a slight edge over her in a fight. Mai’s still talented though, and of course she’s got the power to back up her trash talking. Tier 5: Sakura learned Ansatsuken moves just by watching them, and her chi-manipulation was equal to that of Ken’s in SFA3. She doesn’t even have a trainer! That’s incredible for a girl her age. If Yuri is only above average as Darkstalker claims, she should at least be a good match for Sakura. I think her years of training as a Kyokugen student gives her experience that matches Sakura’s natural powers. Cammy was a top assassin and the primary doll of Shadaloo, but I’m not sure if her skills have improved by SSF2X. Maki would really be a good replacement for Guy if he never returns. She might meet up with Guy later in the SF canon, but until then, her helping role in FF2 will be the only thing that really paid off. As far as I know, no Rival Schools character has had ANYTHING to do with SF whatsoever, despite the series existing in the same universe. Kyosuke may be one of the best characters in RS, but there’s no real way to compare his skills with the SF characters without some sort of relation to them. In short, he isn’t exactly on par with them, except maybe Sakura. If Adon could be in this tier, then so can King! We’ve already gone over why. Hibiki may be inexperienced, but she’s very good as a beginning sword fighter. If she wasn’t afraid of killing, I’d probably place her above everyone else in the tier. I could definitely do that with an Hibiki gone insane, though she might prevent that from happening. If Zangief could be in this tier, then so could Raiden. Pardon me if you don’t like the guy, but Raiden vs. Zangief to me is such a good rivalry. I imagine Chang is on Zangief’s level too, although in a fight, he’d pretty much win unfairly if Choi were there to assist him. Todo seems to be a rather undeveloped character, but I don’t believe he’s any bad, considering he’s the master of his own family art. Now the people who didn’t make the cut: Tier 6: Yun, E.Honda, Rolento, Eagle and Blanka are good fighters, but they haven’t done anything to prove their worth, so they're about average. This goes to show you that looks can be deceiving, especially when you keep that famous, lame Bruce Lee stereotype, Fei-Long in mind. He isn’t important. He’s just there! Please excuse me, Fei-Long fans, but I just hate him. Tier 7: He’s Dan. What more should I say? Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:10:2002 10:59 PM: quote: Originally posted by Psycho Power J I see you added Guile. Yep! Adds more humor to the familiarity of it all, don't it? Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:10:2002 11:30 PM: If they were in the CvS2 tiers, I think Billy Kane would be in either tier 2 or tier 3. That guy's got talent. Ditto for Krauser. I still personally don't think Vice is that powerful. Sure, she displays lots of Orochi-ness, but Iori just killed her (and Mature at the same time! ) soooooo easily that it's not funny... "SNK's major storyline flaw." *snicker* This is one of the reasons why I still prefer NESTs saga to Orochi saga despite all the clones and betrayers... Posted by The Deadpool on 04:10:2002 11:55 PM: *looks at avatar* I just think you like clones or something Posted by The Deadpool on 04:11:2002 12:12 AM: Can Akmua beat any of the heavenly orochi gods? I don't think so. But Kyo and his crew can and so can Iori because he is pretty much on the same lvl. So Kyo or Iori IMO can beat Akuma. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:11:2002 12:23 AM: quote: Originally posted by The Deadpool *looks at avatar* I just think you like clones or something Nah, in truth, I hate the clone aspect of the NESTs saga. Or at least... the -pointless- clone aspect (mainly, what was the point of Zero being a clone? Or Original Zero having another Krizalid clone? And the army of Kyo clones just seemed ridiculous to me Things like that). Krizalid wasn't bad, though, because the fact that he was a clone was actually used as a nice storyline characterization point for the Whip Krizalid dynamic in KOF'99 The Dolls technically aren't clones, you know. Only Cammy is. And... maybe Decapre, but who knows about her? The rest are just gals who just happen to wear the same outfit and share the same kicks (storyline-wise, they each developed their own fighting style regarding their weapons, after all). Didn't Kyo and crew have to gang up on the Orochi heavenly gods to beat them, though? Would Kyo have been able to beat each of them -alone-? I personally think Akuma could beat Kyo or Iori one on one (albeit with much difficulty. Iori's taken out two capable people at once quite often, after all. See Mature and Vice, and Billy and Eiji. ...actually, Iori might be a wild card match, really), but both of them together would definately be able to beat Akuma. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:11:2002 12:27 AM: Can Akmua beat any of the heavenly orochi gods? I don't think so. But Kyo and his crew can and so can Iori because he is pretty much on the same lvl. So Kyo or Iori IMO can beat Akuma. I'm going to assume that Kyo and Iori could beat the Four Heavenly Kings because they are the descendants of two of the clans that defeated the original Orochi dragon. Hell, I'm willing to bet that DAN could beat the Four Heavenly Kings just as much as Kyo and Iori could if he was born as a Kusanagi/Yagami or Yata. And besides, neither Kyo nor Iori could face any one of them alone. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:11:2002 12:36 AM: 8-bit theatre (http://www.nuklearpower.com/comic/) White Mage: Okay. We'll talk about the ethical ramifications of using destiny for profit, later. Right now, I'm more worried about our decoys. They could be in danger. Black Belt: If you're so hung up on this destiny thing, then you shouldn't be worrying. White Mage: How do you figure that? Black Belt: Well, if you REALLY believe that we're all just playing out our pre-destined roles to save the world, then technically, we've already won. It's just a matter of catching up with fate. (Black Belt reappears behind White Mage) Black Belt: Er... how did I get back here? White Mage: I KNEW it! We ARE lost! Grah! Black Belt: Speaking from a purely philosophical perspective, we're not so much LOST as SPACIALLY DISPLACED. White Mage: You -failed- philosophy, didn't you? Black Belt: Big time. Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:11:2002 02:05 AM: So for the purposes of this thread it seems Akuma shouldn't even be matched up with anyone from the SF/KoF/AoF/FF rosters? He does seem more worthy of being with the Last Blade/Darkstalkers crew. Since we're working on KoF/AoF/FF/SF matchups at the moment I'd like to stick with that for now. DS/SS/LB is a whole other thread unto itself. I don't even want to get started about Savage Reign/Kizuna Encounter/etc. Still though, if it makes sense that Kyo is matched with Ryu, and that Terry is matched with Ken, then why does Iori being matched with Akuma seem that far off? Anyways other than that I have to take issue with how you continually list Iori and RoB Iori as if they were seperate. It's like if you looked up the members list for this board and saw Grenade Falcon, Lantis, Neo Rasa, Really Pissed Off Lants, TiamatRoar, etc. I think it belies how dangerous and unpredictable a person Iori is. The fact that he can turn into a high-powered maniac at times isn't something that should be taken as a completely freak incident or a one-time event (especially since in KoF'95~'97 and in several of his super moves as a routine). I honestly don't think Iori is at this time more powerful than Akuma, but that overall (as you say) Iori is a wild card and as a result Akuma would definitely take him seriously and be in for a serious fight. Another (minor) issue with your tiers is that Nakoruru should be tier~1. Again I just want to fill everyone in on her most current incarnation (as the Capcom character judgements all seem to be based on their most current incarnations). Remember that her most recent version is the spirit of nature. She was matched up with Morrigan because they truly are the exact opposites yet equal in power. Morrigan originates as a succubus and, despite having other goals, etc. lives to seduce people and cause their destruction. Nakoruru lives to make people grow in harmony with nature. Being a demonness in the human realm Morrigan is one of the few beings on the planet besides Setsuna that Nakoruru would actively hate and be in the constant process of trying to excise from our plane of existance. Also keep in mind that Nakoruru doesn't even have to be corpeal to affect things on this world if she chooses not to. To kill her would mean that you would have to kill every plant, every tree and river, every insect and germ, literally every non-human thing on the planet simultaneously. Otherwise life will continue. I don't think even Gill or Orochi could cause a cataclysm of that calibur at this time. I'm not saying that Nakoruru can't be defeated, but she DEFINITELY cannot be destroyed and as a result I think she deserves to be placed in tier~1. The Shun Goku Satsu is a technique that attacks the soul, not the body. Regardless if you’re good or evil, its victims are killed sent to hell. Literally. Your past sins would mean a more painful effect too, as demons like to feast on sin after you’re soul is dragged to hell. In this case would it have no affect on other gods/demons/other soulless characters? Would the physical portion of the attack still do anything or would it be like the Fist of the North Star "tickling" sans the exploding head at the end? And yes, you'd have to be in the right state of mind to perform the move successfully without putting your own soul in danger. Is Akuma ALWAYS in the "right" state of mind? Is this why he's able to do the move whenever he wants at will? I don't mean to sound anal it's just most Akuma fans I talk to don't know jack about him. I've always wanted to try to figure out specifically how he "works." I think part of the reason these conflicts arise is because of what I stated in a different thread a while ago about how the sheer philosophies of battle supported by Capcom and SNK are different. Akuma is so powerful because to him fighting truly is everything, etc. SNK tends to go by the opposite, more Musashi-like assertation that one has to be balanced in all things to achieve the zen state of fighting ability that we see in these videogames on a daily basis. It's ironic because, were you to switch around the philosophies of the universes then: In Capcom~ Andy Bogard > Terry Bogard In SNK~ Ken Masters > Ryu I may as well bring it up here while I'm babbling about this, but Ryuuko no Ken (Art of Fighting) can also be translated (loosely) as Way of Opposing Forces. The title is a play on how Ryo and Robert are and always will be equally powerful because they live their fighting live styles to the EXACT opposite degrees (down to one using dragon style and one using tiger style Kyokugen), becoming a superior whole when working together. They also worked this into the ongoing AoF storyline by having AoF2 focus on Ryo tracking down Mr. Big and then fighting Geese Howard and how it will affect the future; With AoF3 focusing on Robert and his past and how it's affected his current life. Art of Fighting did a good job of having each of it's characters represent a different extreme specialization and fault in each of its opponents as well. Whoa, hold on a minute! I didn’t mean who’d win between Fatal Fury and Final Fight characters if that's where you thought I was getting at! This is a thread for mainly discussing how the Capcom and SNK universes would co-exist, not just who we think would win in each match-up. What I was intending for the Southtown and Metro City match is, how would you compare them? I thought you were asking who would win between Metro City characters and Southtown characters. I tried to be fair by listing ANY character from the Final Fight games but listing ONLY Southtown originating/based characters but even then it's pretty mismatched. I can see the two cities getting along somewhat well since Metro City is in pretty good shape overall due to the enforcer efforts of Mike Hagger and friends. Southtown, while being a festering pit of scum and villainy puts on an AMAZING facade. The middle class people/etc. of Southtown are completely happy in it and as far as everyone knows the "seedy side" does not exist in Southtown. This is mostly because Geese had things arranged so that he owned the mayor, etc. Even by the time Garou: Mark of the Wolves comes around when word of Kain's evilness starts to circulate no one even cares because their daily lives are fine either way. On the other hand though by looking at the maps available Southtown seems larger than Metro City, so I don't know if it would even be a factor in Southtown's progress/Geese's plans or, if it were, if Hagger and the crew would even notice or realize it. Still... Considering how they had Mr. Big kidnap Takuma's daughter Yuri to try to force him to work with them, it'd be interesting to see what would happen if Connection Howard expanded and Mike Hagger received a call from Ripper and Hopper concerning the whereabouts of his daughter. I was thinking the same thing. E.Honda can propel himself through the air, mountains of flesh and all. Hinako can't do that. I'm interested if they would see each other as rivals though, but I think E.Honda is too easy-going to have a rival. Yeah, granted Hinako Shidou is very gifted for her age but she's still just a high school student. She does have a great and very mature respect for the principles of Sumo beyond its applications as a fighting style. I could almost picture Honda becoming her mentor. SNK's major storyline flaw. Or a lesson. Power without purpose isn't power. Everything I need to know I learned from Geese Howard. Didn't Kyo and crew have to gang up on the Orochi heavenly gods to beat them, though? Would Kyo have been able to beat each of them -alone-? Actually each of the Hero team took on Orochi Shermie, Orochi Chris, and Orochi Yashiro alone respectively as their Orochi forms took on abilities in imitation of the Hero team's own ki manifestations. I have to double check on Goro but yes, Benimaru is as powerful as Kyo is. I'm going to assume that Kyo and Iori could beat the Four Heavenly Kings because they are the descendants of two of the clans that defeated the original Orochi dragon. Hell, I'm willing to bet that DAN could beat the Four Heavenly Kings just as much as Kyo and Iori could if he was born as a Kusanagi/Yagami or Yata. And besides, neither Kyo nor Iori could face any one of them alone. Again Kyo defeated Orochi Chris on his own. And Goenitz, being the one person who EMBRACED and CONTINUED his heritage and the development of his powers is the one person in the modern Orochi storyline who reached SS/LB/DS level power. Kyo, Iori, and Chizuru together weren't enough to defeat him, instead Chizuru used the Yata mirror to reflect Goenitz' ambition and strength onto himself. Goenitz survived this though long enough to sacrifice his being to contribute more energy towards Orochi's revival (had Goenitz won the day at KoF'96 Orochi would have come forth right then and there). While Orochi being defeated by Kyo/Chizuru/Iori was destiny, Goenitz and the other lords being defeated was definitely not. Their defeat is what turned the last gear to ensure that Orochi would be defeated. That "destiny" would not have happened if not for Goenitz getting taken down that year. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:11:2002 03:13 AM: quote: Originally posted by Neo Rasa Still though, if it makes sense that Kyo is matched with Ryu, and that Terry is matched with Ken, then why does Iori being matched with Akuma seem that far off? Because if Iori is equal to Kyo, who is matched with Ryu, then it's only fair that he be on Ryu's level as well. Not all the Cap/SNK rivalries presented in the games seem to reflect the abilities of the characters (Yuri Sakazaki and BB Hood is just plain dumb ). If I had to match Iori with a Capcom character, I'd personally pick Sagat because he's equal to Ryu, and he once held a grudge against him the same way Iori held a grudge against Kyo. quote: Anyways other than that I have to take issue with how you continually list Iori and RoB Iori as if they were seperate. It's like if you looked up the members list for this board and saw Grenade Falcon, Lantis, Neo Rasa, Really Pissed Off Lants, TiamatRoar, etc. I think it belies how dangerous and unpredictable a person Iori is. The fact that he can turn into a high-powered maniac at times isn't something that should be taken as a completely freak incident or a one-time event (especially since in KoF'95~'97 and in several of his super moves as a routine). If you want to look at it that way, then both Iori and Ryu are more worthy of being tiered with the LB/SS/DS characters, since even they are potentially stronger than the rest of the characters of the SF/KOF planes with their more powerful incarnations. quote: I honestly don't think Iori is at this time more powerful than Akuma, but that overall (as you say) Iori is a wild card and as a result Akuma would definitely take him seriously and be in for a serious fight. Well, this I could agree on. quote: Another (minor) issue with your tiers is that Nakoruru should be tier~1. Again I just want to fill everyone in on her most current incarnation (as the Capcom character judgements all seem to be based on their most current incarnations). Remember that her most recent version is the spirit of nature. She was matched up with Morrigan because they truly are the exact opposites yet equal in power. Morrigan originates as a succubus and, despite having other goals, etc. lives to seduce people and cause their destruction. Nakoruru lives to make people grow in harmony with nature. Being a demonness in the human realm Morrigan is one of the few beings on the planet besides Setsuna that Nakoruru would actively hate and be in the constant process of trying to excise from our plane of existance. Also keep in mind that Nakoruru doesn't even have to be corpeal to affect things on this world if she chooses not to. To kill her would mean that you would have to kill every plant, every tree and river, every insect and germ, literally every non-human thing on the planet simultaneously. Otherwise life will continue. I don't think even Gill or Orochi could cause a cataclysm of that calibur at this time. I'm not saying that Nakoruru can't be defeated, but she DEFINITELY cannot be destroyed and as a result I think she deserves to be placed in tier~1. OH, CRAP! Why didn't I hear this from Siegfried or Lantis when I made those tiers in the SNK thread!? Thanks! quote: In this case would it have no affect on other gods/demons/other soulless characters? From what I can tell, it only works on mortals. In Shin Akuma's Double Impact ending, it is displayed that Gill can survive the Shun Goku Satsu. They never officially fought, but this is another major demonstration of why Gill's so powerful. His soul is immune to any form of punishment and he cannot die. The prophecy behind his existance supports this. Now you know why I said Gill and Orochi was a perfectly even match. quote: Would the physical portion of the attack still do anything or would it be like the Fist of the North Star "tickling" sans the exploding head at the end? It could do some damage to the body, but that's just conjecture based off its in-game performance, where it can still KO an immune being or someone with the proper training in meditation needed to survive it, like Gen. quote: Is Akuma ALWAYS in the "right" state of mind? Is this why he's able to do the move whenever he wants at will? He is the way I see it. I don't recall him ever losing his focus once during battle. If the odds really turned against him in a fight, he would react intelligently and refrain from using the move and rely on his other techniques. quote: I don't mean to sound anal it's just most Akuma fans I talk to don't know jack about him. I've always wanted to try to figure out specifically how he "works." That's okay. Most people don't know jack about Capcom. quote: I think part of the reason these conflicts arise is because of what I stated in a different thread a while ago about how the sheer philosophies of battle supported by Capcom and SNK are different. Akuma is so powerful because to him fighting truly is everything, etc. SNK tends to go by the opposite, more Musashi-like assertation that one has to be balanced in all things to achieve the zen state of fighting ability that we see in these videogames on a daily basis. It's ironic because, were you to switch around the philosophies of the universes then: In Capcom~ Andy Bogard > Terry Bogard In SNK~ Ken Masters > Ryu I may as well bring it up here while I'm babbling about this, but Ryuuko no Ken (Art of Fighting) can also be translated (loosely) as Way of Opposing Forces. The title is a play on how Ryo and Robert are and always will be equally powerful because they live their fighting live styles to the EXACT opposite degrees (down to one using dragon style and one using tiger style Kyokugen), becoming a superior whole when working together. They also worked this into the ongoing AoF storyline by having AoF2 focus on Ryo tracking down Mr. Big and then fighting Geese Howard and how it will affect the future; With AoF3 focusing on Robert and his past and how it's affected his current life. Art of Fighting did a good job of having each of it's characters represent a different extreme specialization and fault in each of its opponents as well. I guess that's one reason why many believe that the Capcom characters would get owned in the SNK universe, and vice versa. It'd be hard trying to create a universe where both philosophies had to exist, but perhaps we'll find a way they might get around that. quote: I thought you were asking who would win between Metro City characters and Southtown characters. I tried to be fair by listing ANY character from the Final Fight games but listing ONLY Southtown originating/based characters but even then it's pretty mismatched. I can see the two cities getting along somewhat well since Metro City is in pretty good shape overall due to the enforcer efforts of Mike Hagger and friends. Southtown, while being a festering pit of scum and villainy puts on an AMAZING facade. The middle class people/etc. of Southtown are completely happy in it and as far as everyone knows the "seedy side" does not exist in Southtown. This is mostly because Geese had things arranged so that he owned the mayor, etc. Even by the time Garou: Mark of the Wolves comes around when word of Kain's evilness starts to circulate no one even cares because their daily lives are fine either way. Actually, Mike Haggar gave up his position as mayor after Final Fight 3 because he realized that know matter what he does, Metro City will always be infested with crime as a new gang seeks to overrun the place whenever a previous gang falls apart. It's interesting to know that Southtown isn't as corrupt because unlike them, Metro City once had Rolento driving through the streets in a tank, shouting at its citizens and flaunting his goals of creating a powerful utopian nation (Rolento's SFA2/FFR endings. They are exactly the same, word for word.). quote: Actually each of the Hero team took on Orochi Shermie, Orochi Chris, and Orochi Yashiro alone respectively as their Orochi forms took on abilities in imitation of the Hero team's own ki manifestations. I have to double check on Goro but yes, Benimaru is as powerful as Kyo is. Again Kyo defeated Orochi Chris on his own. And Goenitz, being the one person who EMBRACED and CONTINUED his heritage and the development of his powers is the one person in the modern Orochi storyline who reached SS/LB/DS level power. Kyo, Iori, and Chizuru together weren't enough to defeat him, instead Chizuru used the Yata mirror to reflect Goenitz' ambition and strength onto himself. Goenitz survived this though long enough to sacrifice his being to contribute more energy towards Orochi's revival (had Goenitz won the day at KoF'96 Orochi would have come forth right then and there). While Orochi being defeated by Kyo/Chizuru/Iori was destiny, Goenitz and the other lords being defeated was definitely not. Their defeat is what turned the last gear to ensure that Orochi would be defeated. That "destiny" would not have happened if not for Goenitz getting taken down that year. Thanks for correcting me there. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:11:2002 03:38 AM: Metro City by the end of FF3 is in complete shambles. I don't know for sure if Mike Haggar just gave up, or if he simply lost the re-election, but the truth of the matter is that after the Skull Cross gang, it's still a wreck and still as chaotic as ever, really. Skull Cross Gang shows that whenever one gang is taken down, a new one will come out of no where to take its place most likely. Final Fight 3's ending ends with the city in ruins, and Guy remarks that it's up to Haggar as mayor to clean it up. The thing is, though, Haggar's mayorship -ends- only one year later, tops (since FF3 has to take place after SFA3, and Haggar's mayorship ended only 2 years after SFA3), which obviously wasn't enough time to clean it up and fix it back at all. In all truthfulness, I personally think the stage is set for a Final Fight 4 to finally clean up Metro City for good or so I think, unless Capcom really DOES want it to end on that dark bad note but... eh, be surprised as heck if Capcom ever went back to that license Posted by Smiley on 04:11:2002 03:48 AM: lol.. sadly, that's true tho. stupid destiny... lol.. can you imagine iori, kyo, and dan kicking ass just because they're destined to? hahahaha.. ANYWAY, just for my own curiousity, where would charlie and gen be on the tiers? cause charlie kicked major ass, and gen is uh.. gen. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:11:2002 05:02 AM: Here are the official tier rankings for the most powerful SF characters, given to us by Saiki: Tier 1 ----------- Akuma, Gill, Oro Tier 2 ----------- M. Bison, Sagat, Ryu, Satsui no Ryu (Evil Ryu), Q(hinted) Tier 3 ----------- Ken, Gen, Rose, Charlie, Urien Tier 4 ----------- Guile, Chun-Li, Hugo, Vega Tier 5 ----------- Adon, Guy, Sakura, Cody, Balrog, Cammy, Zangief, Dhalsim, T Hawk, Alex Please note that these tier rankings were built on the most current states of the characters. Characters that are either dead or just missing in action are placed in certain tiers according to the state they were known to be in during their last appearances in the canon. Just because Gen is in the same tier as Ken, doesn't mean they were both equal at the time of SFA. Charlie is in the third tier because he invented the Sonic Boom and the Flash Kick, and its indicated that he's a much better fighter than Guile because Guile admired him so much and thought of him as a hero. It's even been officially stated that he was the first US Martial Arts champion. Gen and Akuma were equal to each other at the time of SFA. Akuma was the only fighter worthy enough to provide a death match for him. It's not clear whether Akuma killed Gen or not, but Gen was ill in any case. So the chances of him being alive today are very slim, thus he remains in Tier 3 as he was unable to progress any further with the other characters. Come to think of it, if Gen WERE still alive, I'd place him in Tier 1 with Akuma, Oro and Gill. Neo Rasa could be right that Lee Pai Lon of Art of Fighting would be a good SNK rival for Gen. I have yet to see what he's capable of though. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:11:2002 05:18 AM: If Gen were still alive, I'd be a bit surprised if he progressed in skill, assuming his Street Fighter Alpha 3 ending happened (which means he beat Akuma). In Gen's Street Fighter Alpha 3 ending, Gen finally defeats Akuma. I'm not even sure if he killed Akuma or not (Dang Capcom and their awful translation of SFA3), but either way, with Akuma defeated, Gen realizes that he has topped all worthy opponents. He realizes also that Akuma "was the only one worthy of a deathmatch", and now that Gen has won the fight, "there is no reason to use this fighting style any longer". So... basically, if Gen is still alive (which probably means he had to have beaten but spared Akuma), he would have given up fighting after that. Then he could get to training the next generation, like Yun and Yang! Actually, I have an idea semi what-if fanfic/dialogue bit in mind for that assuming that's what happened (and Akuma wasn't killed, of course)... dunno if I'll ever get around to writing it, though. Posted by Psycho Power J on 04:11:2002 05:36 AM: quote: Originally posted by Neo Rasa Another (minor) issue with your tiers is that Nakoruru should be tier~1. Again I just want to fill everyone in on her most current incarnation (as the Capcom character judgements all seem to be based on their most current incarnations). Remember that her most recent version is the spirit of nature. She was matched up with Morrigan because they truly are the exact opposites yet equal in power. Morrigan originates as a succubus and, despite having other goals, etc. lives to seduce people and cause their destruction. Nakoruru lives to make people grow in harmony with nature. Being a demonness in the human realm Morrigan is one of the few beings on the planet besides Setsuna that Nakoruru would actively hate and be in the constant process of trying to excise from our plane of existance. Also keep in mind that Nakoruru doesn't even have to be corpeal to affect things on this world if she chooses not to. To kill her would mean that you would have to kill every plant, every tree and river, every insect and germ, literally every non-human thing on the planet simultaneously. Otherwise life will continue. I don't think even Gill or Orochi could cause a cataclysm of that calibur at this time. I'm not saying that Nakoruru can't be defeated, but she DEFINITELY cannot be destroyed and as a result I think she deserves to be placed in tier~1. I thought we weren't suppose to deal with uber-entities? Well anyway, I doubt that Nakoruru would actively hate Morrigan because Morrigan doesn't really want the destruction of people, storylinewise. That's more Demitri's or Jedah's line. In fact, Morrigan prefers the human to her own world. She just want to have excitement and freedom in her life, which the human world offers. Therefore, she won't try to bring about it's destruction. Of course, she does need a snack every now and then. By the way, what is Nakoruru currently? Another SNK version of the FFVII WEAPONS? Another Orochi? If so, can she be sealed away? quote: Again Kyo defeated Orochi Chris on his own. And Goenitz, being the one person who EMBRACED and CONTINUED his heritage and the development of his powers is the one person in the modern Orochi storyline who reached SS/LB/DS level power. Kyo, Iori, and Chizuru together weren't enough to defeat him, instead Chizuru used the Yata mirror to reflect Goenitz' ambition and strength onto himself. Goenitz survived this though long enough to sacrifice his being to contribute more energy towards Orochi's revival (had Goenitz won the day at KoF'96 Orochi would have come forth right then and there). While Orochi being defeated by Kyo/Chizuru/Iori was destiny, Goenitz and the other lords being defeated was definitely not. Their defeat is what turned the last gear to ensure that Orochi would be defeated. That "destiny" would not have happened if not for Goenitz getting taken down that year. And yet, it happened anyway. This means it's still all part of the destiny thing. Another version could happen, but as long as it ends up having Orochi defeated again, it's still destined. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:11:2002 05:50 AM: ...BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! For some reason, the sheer thought of the possibility that Nakaruru would have to be -sealed- is very hilarious to me Evil bad guys: We must seal away Nakaruru! It just... sounded so funny Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:11:2002 06:03 AM: Well anyway, I doubt that Nakoruru would actively hate Morrigan because Morrigan doesn't really want the destruction of people, storylinewise. That's more Demitri's or Jedah's line. In fact, Morrigan prefers the human to her own world. She just want to have excitement and freedom in her life, which the human world offers. Therefore, she won't try to bring about it's destruction. Of course, she does need a snack every now an then. Cool. I never knew about Morrigan's preference for the human world myself. By the way, what is Nakoruru currently? Another SNK version of the FFVII WEAPONS? Another Orochi? If so, can she be sealed away? I think what he said about her speaks for itself. To kill her, you'd have to rid the planet of all lifeforms by destroying it. Seal Nakoruru away...... And yet, it happened anyway. This means it's still all part of the destiny thing. Another version could happen, but as long as it ends up having Orochi defeated again, it's still destined. Ah, good point! Posted by Psycho Power J on 04:11:2002 06:10 AM: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar ...BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! For some reason, the sheer thought of the possibility that Nakaruru would have to be -sealed- is very hilarious to me Evil bad guys: We must seal away Nakaruru! It just... sounded so funny Hey, you never know. I mean, Nakururu could pull a WEAPON on us. Nakoruru: The planet is in pain! The humans are causing this! They are evil! They must be destroyed! Galford: Hey there Nak. What are you- Nakoruru: DIE EVIL HUMAN!!! Galford: AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!! Posted by Darkstalker on 04:11:2002 07:17 AM: Do NOT diss Galford... Posted by sano on 04:11:2002 05:09 PM: Here's my take on it. Ryu vs. Kyo Ryu's winning this fight. Why? Because Kyo's one on one stats suck. Most of the battles he's one is with the help of his teammates. Even to defeat Orochi he needed help from Iori and Chizuru. Now, he did defeat many single opponents to enter the tournament, but most of them were guys to weak to even be in a videogame. Fighting one on one, he lost to Goenitz and correct me if I'm wrong, he still has not settled his score with Iori. Ryu on the other hand, most likely defeated every contender in SF1, (Although he only defeated Sagat with a lucky SNH blow) defeated Vega (the dictator) in SFA3, (Capcom doesn't state what he did in SF2) defeated Hugo and Ken in SF3. Although he's lost some fights (Sagat in SFA3 while under SNH, Ken in SFA2, Oro in SF3) these one on one stats are better then Kyo's. Furhermore, Ryu has settled the score with his cheif rival Ken while Kyo has not. (Iori) Ryu still has not settled his score with Sagat, only because he knows that if they fight now he will probably loose, so he's training hard (possibly with Oro) for that day. Now, in a team battle with Kyo's team versus Ryu and any other two partners (Ken and Chunli, for example) Ryu would definitely loose because he is not experienced at fighting with partners. Unfortunately, there is no way to assemble Kyo's entire team (No Daimon) in any of the vs. games, so it all comes down to who Ryu and Kyo partner up with. All in all, I don't think Kyo has the experience to win this fight. Also, Kyo has other things going on in his life (the Kyo in the vs. games is a student, and he has a girlfriend) so he doesn't live just for fighting the way Ryu does. Heck, even his power comes naturally to him and he didn't have to master it like Ryu mastered the Hadoken. Correct me If I'm wrong because I am by no means an SNK expert, but that's my take on it. I apologize if I repeated points made in the past since I have not had a chance to read everyone's post yet. Posted by The Deadpool on 04:11:2002 06:03 PM: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar 8-bit theatre (http://www.nuklearpower.com/comic/) White Mage: Okay. We'll talk about the ethical ramifications of using destiny for profit, later. Right now, I'm more worried about our decoys. They could be in danger. Black Belt: If you're so hung up on this destiny thing, then you shouldn't be worrying. White Mage: How do you figure that? Black Belt: Well, if you REALLY believe that we're all just playing out our pre-destined roles to save the world, then technically, we've already won. It's just a matter of catching up with fate. (Black Belt reappears behind White Mage) Black Belt: Er... how did I get back here? White Mage: I KNEW it! We ARE lost! Grah! Black Belt: Speaking from a purely philosophical perspective, we're not so much LOST as SPACIALLY DISPLACED. White Mage: You -failed- philosophy, didn't you? Black Belt: Big time. Oh another 8 Bit reader. Sword Chucks own! Posted by The Deadpool on 04:11:2002 06:08 PM: quote: Originally posted by sano Here's my take on it. Ryu vs. Kyo Ryu's winning this fight. Why? Because Kyo's one on one stats suck. Most of the battles he's one is with the help of his teammates. Even to defeat Orochi he needed help from Iori and Chizuru. Now, he did defeat many single opponents to enter the tournament, but most of them were guys to weak to even be in a videogame. Fighting one on one, he lost to Goenitz and correct me if I'm wrong, he still has not settled his score with Iori. Ryu on the other hand, most likely defeated every contender in SF1, (Although he only defeated Sagat with a lucky SNH blow) defeated Vega (the dictator) in SFA3, (Capcom doesn't state what he did in SF2) defeated Hugo and Ken in SF3. Although he's lost some fights (Sagat in SFA3 while under SNH, Ken in SFA2, Oro in SF3) these one on one stats are better then Kyo's. Furhermore, Ryu has settled the score with his cheif rival Ken while Kyo has not. (Iori) Ryu still has not settled his score with Sagat, only because he knows that if they fight now he will probably loose, so he's training hard (possibly with Oro) for that day. Now, in a team battle with Kyo's team versus Ryu and any other two partners (Ken and Chunli, for example) Ryu would definitely loose because he is not experienced at fighting with partners. Unfortunately, there is no way to assemble Kyo's entire team (No Daimon) in any of the vs. games, so it all comes down to who Ryu and Kyo partner up with. All in all, I don't think Kyo has the experience to win this fight. Also, Kyo has other things going on in his life (the Kyo in the vs. games is a student, and he has a girlfriend) so he doesn't live just for fighting the way Ryu does. Heck, even his power comes naturally to him and he didn't have to master it like Ryu mastered the Hadoken. Correct me If I'm wrong because I am by no means an SNK expert, but that's my take on it. I apologize if I repeated points made in the past since I have not had a chance to read everyone's post yet. Kyo beat Rugal twice without his teamates help. Rugal beat Goro and Beni without breaking a sweat and Kyo beat him. The next year Rugal had Kyo's dad Saiysu under his control and made him fight Kyo's team. Goro and Beni were tired from the fight with Saiysu so Kyo fought Rugal one on one. Rugal blew up because he used so much power or something. On a different subject I don't think Iori and Kyo are on the same lvl. I feel Iori is stronger than Kyo. Iori's family made the pact to be stronger. So they are stronger but I don't think Iori just has enough fighting skills to take on Kyo. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:11:2002 07:57 PM: Ryu was not under Satsui No Hado when Sagat beat him in SFA3. He was brainwashed by Bison's Psycho Power and could not fight using his own potential. It had no effect on his strength or moves at all. If he was under Satsui No Hado, you would have to fight SnH Ryu in Sagat's story instead of normal Ryu. And if that really happened, Sagat wouldn't have survived to see the light of day in SF2. Posted by Lantis on 04:12:2002 12:25 AM: Really Pissed Off Lantis... But wait...!!!!! *starts foaming in the mouth, eyes turn back, thrusts hands into the air* GRRRRR!!! CURSE YOU BLOODY BASTARDS TA HADES! SNK rOxOR!!!! CRAPCOM SUX!!!! WE OEN jOOz!!!! CRAPCOM ARE PUSSIES! GRAAAHHH! FEED ME CHEEZEBURGERS NOOOOOOW!!!!!! Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:12:2002 01:57 AM: How'd Rugal beat Benimaru and Goro without breaking a sweat, anyways, when Benimaru's supposed to be as powerful as Kyo? Hmm... guess it's a 'saw my father in a tube and got pissed' sort of thing. Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:12:2002 04:13 AM: Because if Iori is equal to Kyo... Where does it say Iori is equal to Kyo...? Again, take into consideration why the main character matchups are: Terry/Ken Iori/Akuma Kyo/Ryu Think about why Kyo, one of the most arrogant and headstrong people on the planet, does not want to fight Iori while Iori does want to fight Kyo and actively goes after him. If you want to look at it that way, then both Iori and Ryu are more worthy of being tiered with the LB/SS/DS characters, since even they are potentially stronger than the rest of the characters of the SF/KOF planes with their more powerful incarnations. I don't want to look at it that way, however not much choice is given taking into account the pedastel so many comparing characters are put on. OH, CRAP! Why didn't I hear this from Siegfried or Lantis when I made those tiers in the SNK thread!? Thanks! Lots of people don't take it into account because of the order the 2D Samurai Shodown games take place in. They go SS1, SS3, SS4, SS2. Nakoruru's SS2 ending is where it actually happens so many people don't recall it offhand. From what I can tell, it only works on mortals. In Shin Akuma's Double Impact ending, it is displayed that Gill can survive the Shun Goku Satsu. They never officially fought, but this is another major demonstration of why Gill's so powerful. His soul is immune to any form of punishment and he cannot die. The prophecy behind his existance supports this. Now you know why I said Gill and Orochi was a perfectly even match. While I still don't think anyone is a "match" for Orochi I can understand why you said Gill would be now. It could do some damage to the body, but that's just conjecture based off its in-game performance, where it can still KO an immune being or someone with the proper training in meditation needed to survive it, like Gen. So it's unknown if there's really a "physical" portion to the attack? He is the way I see it. I don't recall him ever losing his focus once during battle. If the odds really turned against him in a fight, he would react intelligently and refrain from using the move and rely on his other techniques. Makes sense to me. That's okay. Most people don't know jack about Capcom. There's no need to gloat. I guess that's one reason why many believe that the Capcom characters would get owned in the SNK universe, and vice versa. It'd be hard trying to create a universe where both philosophies had to exist, but perhaps we'll find a way they might get around that. The only real way to get around it would be for more development to go into the character's personalities. Of the two major combat philosophies I mentioned here, each character would have to be given enough backstory, etc. that a concrete determination of which they followed and how they react to disciples of the other could be determined, then we could try to mesh the universes together. Basically anyone trying to really combine the two universes would have to to a full analysis of each individual character/location in every game made by both companies and the possible philisophical and allegorical meanings behind their presence in which place as it would relate to the views of the individual company and the reading public as a whole. ... I should be an English teacher. Actually, Mike Haggar gave up his position as mayor after Final Fight 3 because he realized that know matter what he does, Metro City will always be infested with crime as a new gang seeks to overrun the place whenever a previous gang falls apart. It's interesting to know that Southtown isn't as corrupt because unlike them, Metro City once had Rolento driving through the streets in a tank, shouting at its citizens and flaunting his goals of creating a powerful utopian nation (Rolento's SFA2/FFR endings. They are exactly the same, word for word.). Mike Hagger a quitter? That just crushed my childhood memories of the game. Did Rolento's ending "happen?" Or was it placed identically just to give you a connection with when the game was set like the extra touches in Fatal Fury: Wild Ambition? At this rate Final Fight 4 could be about Geese Howard benevolantly "donating" money to the city to help "clean it up." Won't change everything, but the people will be happy and it'll LOOK better, so there'll probably be a Philanthropy Belfry put up in Metro City eventually too. Thanks for correcting me there. My pleasure. Come to think of it, if Gen WERE still alive, I'd place him in Tier 1 with Akuma, Oro and Gill. Neo Rasa could be right that Lee Pai Lon of Art of Fighting would be a good SNK rival for Gen. I have yet to see what he's capable of though. Obtain AoF1/AoF2. I thought we weren't suppose to deal with uber-entities? Oops. Well anyway, I doubt that Nakoruru would actively hate Morrigan because Morrigan doesn't really want the destruction of people, storylinewise. That's more Demitri's or Jedah's line. In fact, Morrigan prefers the human to her own world. She just want to have excitement and freedom in her life, which the human world offers. Therefore, she won't try to bring about it's destruction. Of course, she does need a snack every now and then. Abhorance is probably the best human term to word the spiritual reaction she would have to Morrigan's mere presence on this plane of existance. As I said regardless of Morrigan's motives, her being a biblical demonness at heart would create a "disturbance in the force," per se. It would "offend mighty nature" and as Nakoruru makes quite clear if you do anything that intentionally harms nature (which Morrigan is doing since she doesn't HAVE to be here) she will destroy you. By the way, what is Nakoruru currently? Another SNK version of the FFVII WEAPONS? Another Orochi? If so, can she be sealed away? Annihilate the entire planet and you might be able to seal her away. And yet, it happened anyway. This means it's still all part of the destiny thing. Another version could happen, but as long as it ends up having Orochi defeated again, it's still destined. However destiny didn't "kick in" until Iori, Chizuru, and Kyo were standing there in shock as Orochi blew away all other KoF'97 entrants by looking at them. Remember, in every myth and legend the hero has to find and fulfil his destiny. It's a universal moral that you have to do some things for yourself no matter HOW powerful the help is. Heaven helps those who help themselves, etc. Those self-determined victories are what truly gives us the strength to have faith. Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:12:2002 04:17 AM: sano: You should read the thread in its entireity. Many of your views about SNK's philosophy towards fighting and Kyo Kusanagi seem misguided. TiamatRoar: As is often the case in SNK, the desire for revenge is sharper than the strongest blade. Hell getting revenge no matter the cost when your family is messed with is basically the moral of the Fatal Fury series. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:12:2002 04:44 AM: On a tangent, I thought that by Fatal Fury 3, Terry had given up on revenge? I thought he realized there was more to life than just revenge, and had decided to stop Geese simply because he didn't want Geese to hurt people and do bad things, not in order to get revenge on Geese. Isn't that why Terry tried to save Geese's life at the end or something? Rock does tell Gato in his win quote, "You can't win by hate, alone. That's what Terry taught me." and such. I could be wrong, though, since I don't exactly know the specifics of most of the SNK storylines. But I always figured that revenge was only the moral of the Fatal Fury series for Fatal Fury 1 and that was it, and that for some of the later FF games, the whole moral was that one shouldn't focus on revenge Even Kain seems to concentrate more on his ideals these days than revenge against Geese's legacy, really. Or at least, just as equally... I'm not sure if Mike Haggar quit so much as just... lost the next election (which would mean that the people of Metro City quitted, since they elected Haggar in the first place due to him promising to clean up the city, I believe. Ack!). It hasn't really been stated except that two years after Street Fighter Alpha 3 (one year before Street Fighter 2), Mike Haggar was no longer mayor. I think a good storyline for a new Final Fight game would be that ex-Mayor Mike Haggar still believes the city can be cleaned up, even though the new mayor will have nothing of it. I still think there's lots of room and storyline potential for another Final Fight game, from Cody being called back to fight to Guy missing to Dean's history to Rolento and Sodom's new Mad Gear (well, that might not be the name of it but eh, same ideal). In fact, I'm thinking of doing some sort of made-up dialogue FAQ for something like that, someday, just for fun Because I'd be surprised if Capcom ever made another Final Fight game Though... Final Fight One for the gameboy advance with its storyline dialogues that actually give new insight into Final Fight's storyline DOES show that Capcom hasn't completely forgotten about the Final Fight series storyline, yet... Rolento's SFA2 ending... I dunno for sure if it's meant to be canon, but, thing is, it's repeated in Final Fight Revenge, which was okay'd by Capcom of Japan for the storyline, in both Rolento's -and- Haggar's ending. My guess is that Rolento started the uprising, but Haggar managed to bring it down, and after that, Rolento realized that he needed more soldiers and weapons before he could succeed (Rolento is searching for more soldiers and weapons in SFA3 because he feels his army isn't strong enough, yet) Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:12:2002 05:11 AM: On a tangent, I thought that by Fatal Fury 3, Terry had given up on revenge? I thought he realized there was more to life than just revenge, and had decided to stop Geese simply because he didn't want Geese to hurt people and do bad things, not in order to get revenge on Geese. Isn't that why Terry tried to save Geese's life at the end or something? I could be wrong, though, since I don't exactly know the specifics of most of the SNK storylines. But I always figured that revenge was only the moral of the Fatal Fury series for Fatal Fury 1 and that was it Even Kain seems to concentrate more on his ideals these days than revenge against Geese's legacy, really. Or at least, just as equally... First of all Kain was FRIENDS with Geese, not an opponent. Also you're thinking of Real Bout Fatal Fury's ending, not FF3. Again though, the legacy of Geese continues through Kain and Rock as per Garou's ending. Terry has no legacy. The ultimate goal of humanity since the stone age is to gain "immortality" via the actions of your offspring and by said offspring continuing the prosperity of whatever empire you built. Looking at Geese and Terry's respective situations, who is really the "winner?" On a different note entirely notice how in just about every anime/etc. good guys use blue energy while bad guys use red. Look at Geese and Terry's ki coloring. I'm not sure if Mike Haggar quit so much as just... lost the next election (which would mean that the people of Metro City quitted, since they elected Haggar in the first place due to him promising to clean up the city, I believe. Ack!). Before making a judgement like that about the people we have to take term limits into account and the amount of time that elapsed between FF2 and FF3. Final Fight 4 could have a kickass storyline but somehow I think it will end up like Sengoku III if it ever occurs. And after all that with Rolento happened Hagger decided to don suspenders, change his name to Franco Bash, and appear in Fatal Fury 3 and up. Posted by tool_028 on 04:12:2002 06:04 AM: even though this is breaking away from the discussion, does anyone want to comment on Heidern vs. Rolento? it seems to we that Heidern would want to rid the world of Rolento's evil, just as he feels a moral obligation to take down rugal (alright, maybe he doesn't, but i'm trying to give people a good excuse to talk about this) Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:12:2002 06:44 AM: Wow, Kain was -friends- with Geese? I didn't know that. I thought he hated Geese for Geese abandoning his sister or something. Admittingly, the game didn't show any hatred that Kain had for Geese at all, but Lantis' story FAQ did, so I figured it knew something that I didn't http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/arcad..._fury_story.txt Hrm... guess that pretty much throws what I know about Fatal Fury's themes in Garou out the window, then... Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:12:2002 01:30 PM: Where does it say Iori is equal to Kyo...? Again, take into consideration why the main character matchups are: Terry/Ken Iori/Akuma Kyo/Ryu Think about why Kyo, one of the most arrogant and headstrong people on the planet, does not want to fight Iori while Iori does want to fight Kyo and actively goes after him. I don't believe there has ever been a clear victor in all the times Kyo and Iori fought. Weren't Kyo's victories over Iori in KOF timed victories? Without those conditions, those matches could've went in either character's favor. Kyo just doesn't believe in fighting to the death. How does that explain who's the more powerful among the two? Regarding those match-ups, why not take into consideration why other character match-ups like these are presented? Joe/Dan- CvS Vice/Cammy- CvS Leona/Guile- SvC Rugal/Akuma- CvS Yuri/BB Hood- SvC Yamazaki/Vega- CvS Again, not all rivalries reflect the abilities of the characters. Iori and Akuma could be matched in SvC for reasons other than level of power for all we know. I don't want to look at it that way, however not much choice is given taking into account the pedastel so many comparing characters are put on. I still stand by my point on Iori and Ryu being more powerful in their alternate manifestations making their place on that structural order of power optional. They may never enter those states again, but providing they did, they would be placed near Akuma's level of power. It doesn't contradict, even when you consider that the characters are judged here by their most current state. So it's unknown if there's really a "physical" portion to the attack? There has to be. He has to grab them and do something in order to pull it off, doesn't he? Makes sense to me. Remember, he doesn't need the SGS in battle. Just think of it as a finishing move. There's no need to gloat. No? quote: Originally gloated by Neo Rasa This is the guy who has to ask "Who are you?" Every he runs into Madame Bison. Right..."disciples"... A weakness! As I said regardless of Morrigan's motives, her being a biblical demonness at heart would create a "disturbance in the force," per se. Morrigan a biblical demonness? Just because she's a demon, doesn't mean she comes from hell or any dimension of the afterlife. Makai is supposedly a normal world that's inhabited by beings superior to humans. But perhaps Nakoruru wouldn't understand that and just take it upon herself to hunt Morrigan down anyway. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:12:2002 02:46 PM: POST: 100 even though this is breaking away from the discussion, does anyone want to comment on Heidern vs. Rolento? it seems to we that Heidern would want to rid the world of Rolento's evil, just as he feels a moral obligation to take down rugal (alright, maybe he doesn't, but i'm trying to give people a good excuse to talk about this) This could be an interesting match-up. Rolento aims to build a powerful utopian nation, and Heidern leads his own assassination squadron against terrorist actions and other global threats. Ideally, Rolento and Heidern's goals could compromise each other, seeing as how Heidern's unit consists of highly functional armaments and first-class soldiers, and nothing under his command would directly oppose Rolento's plans. However, Heidern's too busy to contribute his efforts toward a cause that could even be beneficial in some way. On the other hand, if Rolento did something that could put Heidern's tactical strategies in jeopardy, such as attempting to recruit the Ikaris while they're on a mission, then that I could imagine them going to war over. As to who would win in a fight between the two, I'd say Heidern. Rolento's combat approach often involves ganging up on his adversaries, and since Guy mananged to take out Rolento and his troops all at once in Final Fight, Heidern shouldn't have that much of a problem against him either, considering that he has far greater experience in dealing with superior numbers. Anyway, my thanks go to all who have participated in this thread and contributed to its success so far as to push it up to the 100 mark. Keep those posts comin'. Posted by Lantis on 04:12:2002 03:12 PM: I don't know about Kain being Geese's friend. If that was true, he could have been Geese's friend BEFORE he knew Marie was ditched by Geese. I mean, Kain holds his sister in such high regard (as to keep a big ass painting in his mansion) that I doubt he could withstand her dying and Geese neglecting it all. That's why I think Kain wants to surpass everything Geese had done before, to show him how he's truly better. Or...he could also been continuing Geese's "dream" and create a world where only the strong can live. For all that, we don't know for sure, I guess... Posted by Psycho Power J on 04:12:2002 03:57 PM: quote: Do NOT diss Galford... Don't be mad. I'm not dissing anyone. I'm just guessing what would happen if Nakoruru snaps and turns psycho. quote: Abhorance is probably the best human term to word the spiritual reaction she would have to Morrigan's mere presence on this plane of existance. As I said regardless of Morrigan's motives, her being a biblical demonness at heart would create a "disturbance in the force," per se. It would "offend mighty nature" and as Nakoruru makes quite clear if you do anything that intentionally harms nature (which Morrigan is doing since she doesn't HAVE to be here) she will destroy you. I think Morrigan as the succubus is based only loosely on the biblical verion. Because from what I know, the biblical version hates babies so they go around trying to get pregnant so they can give birth and kill the babies, as well as stealing peoples' souls. It's stupid, I know, but that's religion for you. I think the humans do a lot more damage to the environment than Morrigan ever plans to. You don't see Nakoruru wiping out the human race(yet). quote: However destiny didn't "kick in" until Iori, Chizuru, and Kyo were standing there in shock as Orochi blew away all other KoF'97 entrants by looking at them. Remember, in every myth and legend the hero has to find and fulfil his destiny. It's a universal moral that you have to do some things for yourself no matter HOW powerful the help is. Heaven helps those who help themselves, etc. Those self-determined victories are what truly gives us the strength to have faith. Oh, you mean that defeating the lords isn't destined? I see. So basically, there is nothing written down where the lords are suppose to revive Orochi. And defeating them isn't part of the destiny either. How could Kyo and Co. defeat Orochi if it isn't destined? Not by their own strengths surely. He did wipe out the rest of the KOF cast without even breaking a sweat and Kyo and Iori are nowhere near that level. From what I know, the hero is suppose to fufill his destiny, or else something bad will happen. Destiny is prewritten, and when something goes against it, tragedy occurs. Even if it's just by sitting around and doing nothing. Basically, the heroes are trying to fulfill their destiny because they don't want something bad to happen, in Kyo's case, Orochi destroying them. From my perspective, blackmailing me to be part of a universal scheme of things really doesn't really do much for my faith. It's basically saying to you have fulfill your role or you'll be punished. Now I'm rambling philosophy. Posted by sano on 04:12:2002 04:30 PM: I actually do know that Sagat beat Brainwashed Ryu and not SNH Ryu, just a goof on my part. (in my defense, SNH has less letters then brainwashed... kidding.) Kyo actually won some one on one fights! Well, that improves my opinion of him even though I still like Terry better and will never understand why SNK didn't make him the star of KOF. Anyway, I found an old article in a magazine that's relevant to this topic that I wish to post here either later today or monday. I hope you can except it as a Ryu fanboy's apology and I will go back and read the entire thread before saying anything else. Thanks for the corrections! Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:12:2002 05:30 PM: quote: From what I know, the hero is suppose to fufill his destiny, or else something bad will happen. Destiny is prewritten, and when something goes against it, tragedy occurs. Even if it's just by sitting around and doing nothing. Basically, the heroes are trying to fulfill their destiny because they don't want something bad to happen, in Kyo's case, Orochi destroying them. From my perspective, blackmailing me to be part of a universal scheme of things really doesn't really do much for my faith. It's basically saying to you have fulfill your role or you'll be punished. Now I'm rambling philosophy. As Lantis stated, Mature, Vice, and Guidel tried to go against destiny and died very horrible deaths for it. Oi vey. I like how the Suikoden games at least... try to handle the question of destiny, sorta. One of the themes of Suikoden is "Is fate unchangeable?". That question is plastered all over the games' introduction. Suikoden generally follows a pre-destined path, but there's a good ending and a not-as-good ending you can get depending on how you handle things in both Suikoden 1 and Suikoden 2, which shows that fate -is- changeable in many respects. Or... at least, I think that's the point of the question and the fact that you can get good endings and not-as-good endings in those games... Heck, Suikoden 2 even has a bad ending where you can have the hero just run away from it all with his sister and get to live a life secluded away while the rest of the land goes to hell in a handbasket And if you don't do that, his sister gets killed while on the path to destiny ...unless you -really- play your cards right, then she gets to live AND you get to fulfill your destiny and save the country, and you get the best ending. Screw you, destiny! Hmm... Kain being Geese's friend... well, like I said, the games really don't seem to show that much hatred of Geese there (course, I really don't think they show much admiration either, but I could be misinterpretting Kain's ramblings about Geese's legacy), but I do have to agree that Kain being friends with Geese just doesn't seem to make much sense to me, either, due to what Geese did to Marie. Oi vey. I'm so confused! Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:12:2002 07:25 PM: Morrigan a biblical demonness? Just because she's a demon, doesn't mean she comes from hell or any dimension of the afterlife. Makai is supposedly a normal world that's inhabited by beings superior to humans. Actually by definition a demon is any spiritual being not originating on our world that initially has evil intentions towards mankind. Succubi in particular are clearly stated in multiple mythologies to originate and govern over parts of hell itself. Also Makai is the biblical hell. The nature of the people running the show in the GnG series, Firebrand saga, etc. should be proof enough of that. The parallels in these game storylines to already stated religous legends cannot be denied IMO. Even non-Capcom games like Demon's World/Horror Story, Legend of Makai/Makai Densetsu, etc. go by this logic. To put it in perspective, what you're saying is like saying vampires aren't affected by holy water because in the US version of Castlevania 1 it's called "Magical Fire Bomb" instead of Holy Water. But perhaps Nakoruru wouldn't understand that and just take it upon herself to hunt Morrigan down anyway. Nakoruru would understand it, however from a metaphysical standpoint it wouldn't matter to her. Morrigan is still something that should never exist on this plane and Nakoruru would therefore try to stop her from doing so. """There's no need to gloat.""" No? This could be an interesting match-up. Rolento aims to build a powerful utopian nation, and Heidern leads his own assassination squadron against terrorist actions and other global threats. Ideally, Rolento and Heidern's goals could compromise each other, seeing as how Heidern's unit consists of highly functional armaments and first-class soldiers, and nothing under his command would directly oppose Rolento's plans. However, Heidern's too busy to contribute his efforts toward a cause that could even be beneficial in someway. On the other hand, if Rolento did something that could put Heidern's tactical strategies in jeopardy, such as attempting to recruit the Ikaris while they're on a mission, then that I could imagine them going to war over. Heidern himself isn't always too busy though so I think he would stay involved. Even at the end of KoF'99 Heidern himself goes in to personally help eradicate Kyo clones with the rest of the Ikaris. And he devoted several years of his life JUST to getting revenge on Rugal Bernstein yet was still able to maintain the whole Ikari infrastructure. I could picture Heidern keeping tabs on Rolento for a while were they in the same universe but probably not taking action until Rolento was already rolling a tank around in the street/etc. As to who would win in a fight between the two, I'd say Heidern. Rolento's combat approach often involves ganging up on his adversaries, and since Guy mananged to take out Rolento and his troops all at once in Final Fight, Heidern shouldn't have that much of a problem against him either, considering that he has far greater experience in dealing with superior numbers. I have to agree here. Rolento is one of my favorite Capcom characters but he's always portrayed as someone trying to make a comeback or regain lost glory. Heidern on the other hand has been at his PEAK performance for several years now and shows no signs of that performance level waning. He's already in control of and handling what Rolento WISHES he could. One hundred posts is nothing. Give us a few more days and questions. Lantis: They're very vague about Geese's overall plans, but Kain's seem to simply be to continue Geese's. He speaks of Geese and his powers in an almost reverential tone during the Garou cutscenes so I think he takes the "Only the powerful one survives." mentality far enough that his sister may have become irrelevant to him and that painting is just to keep up a good public image. I think Morrigan as the succubus is based only loosely on the biblical verion. Because from what I know, the biblical version hates babies so they go around trying to get pregnant so they can give birth and kill the babies, as well as stealing peoples' souls. Morrigan I'm pretty sure does point out at points in the Darkstalkers series that she eats souls for breakfast. Also it's not out of hatred for babies that they try to give birth to them as often as possible, but because in many rituals that require a child sacrifice the child HAS to be unbaptized for it to work. The succubus being in control of the whole process tends to decrease the chances of this. The first myth that comes to mind concerning this is the birth of Merlin, who was originally part of a diabolical plan to aid and evil king but, his human mother was found by a pious friar and hidden, Merlin himself being baptized the second he was born. It's also interesting to note that even Merlin could not be killed, but in all known endings to the story he is either sealed away (Hey Orochi, Nak, move over I'm tryin' to get some sleep here ) or he lives on in a hidden cave. It's stupid, I know, but that's religion for you. Thanks. I think the humans do a lot more damage to the environment than Morrigan ever plans to. You don't see Nakoruru wiping out the human race(yet). Inaction is sometimes the evilest deed a person can do. the SS/LB/KoF/AoF/FF universes are tied together, but I didn't see Nakoruru helping anyone stop Orochi. Oh, you mean that defeating the lords isn't destined? I see. So basically, there is nothing written down where the lords are suppose to revive Orochi. And defeating them isn't part of the destiny either. No, I'm saying that had Kyo/etc. chosen not to bother with them then destiny would not have been of any use. How could Kyo and Co. defeat Orochi if it isn't destined? Again, Orochi's defeat is destined if all other aspects of the prophecies, premonitions, etc. are fulfilled. Was it all "blackmale" though? Leona seems to have survived just fine despite not taking any active part in the Orochi debacle. Also you're thinking of destiny in the classical sense of something that is absolutely and irrevocably written in stone thousands of years prior that will transpire no matter what. Why view it like that if you apparently don't like said view? As I said earlier, defeating Rugal, Goenitz, etc. is what gave Kyo and friends and the increase in confidence, etc. that was needed to complete the (since we're using heroic journey terminology now) "quest." As Lantis stated, Mature, Vice, and Guidel tried to go against destiny and died very horrible deaths for it. Oi vey. How do you know it was not their destiny to die then? Keep in mind that following "destiny" from the perspective you're all using Iori and Ryuji Yamazaki would have been actively aiding Orochi's ressurrection, and Leona would have pitched in as well. None of that happened though. Heck, Suikoden 2 even has a bad ending where you can have the hero just run away from it all with his sister and get to live a life secluded away while the rest of the land goes to hell in a handbasket And if you don't do that, his sister gets killed while on the path to destiny ...unless you -really- play your cards right, then she gets to live AND you get to fulfill your destiny and save the country, and you get the best ending. Screw you, destiny! YES. You see? "Destiny" is just that the ending will either happen or not happen. It's my destiny to die. Whether I do so via old age or something else is ALMOST entirely up to me. Do you see where I'm coming from with this? Orochi's destiny was to be defeated and sealed away again, it is NOW canon that the only way that could happen was to have Kyo/Iori/Chizuru together but that's only because that's HOW it happened. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:12:2002 07:37 PM: Wow, I didn't think Kain cared about Geese's legacy over his sister... I always thought that one of the reasons Shadow Kain attacks Kain in Garou is because Shadow Kain is angry that Kain still cares about his sister and is letting himself be guided by emotions (you can see Kain still cares about his sister in his dialogue with Grant when you play as Grant and such, I think). Kain admits that his emotions and compassion (he calls it 'conniving' to Shadow Kain, but he says to Terry when you beat him as Terry that Compassion is the same thing as conniving. Or that it breeds conniving. Whatever) for his sister are a weakness, but that one can not be truly free if they don't have any emotions. Shadow Kain then admits that Kain has shown that even with his emotions, he's still strong enough to make their ideals a reality, so Shadow Kain parts to the darkness. Kain also tells Terry that while he thinks compassion breeds conniving and bias, it's still admittingly something a person needs. So, I'm pretty positive that Kain continues to care about Marie even as he pursues his ideals and Geese's legacy... I thought Leona did take part in the Orochi debacle? Didn't she enter Riot of Blood then Ralf and Clark have to contain her in KOF 97? Unless I'm remembering things wrong. And (note that this is a tangent and not necessarily a disagreement about destiny in stone as a whole. Destiny was always something I despised discussing on a deeper level because it seemed so vague and all Greek to me) wasn't Iori destined to unite with Kyo against Orochi? That overrides his destiny to help Orochi, I always figured. At least, that was the way the ending with Kyo, Iori, and Chizuru in KOF '97 seemed to portray it since Chizuru remarks about Kyo and Iori's destiny to team up against Orochi after Iori breaks Orochi's control over himself... ...okay, I'm -STILL- so confused! Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:12:2002 08:20 PM: Kain also tells Terry that while he thinks compassion breeds conniving and bias, it's still admittingly something a person needs. I think this is the crux of Kain's argument though: That we should aspire to lose compassion if we ever wish to become more than human. Also if Kain really did care about her then where was he when she was dying? Okay think of it like this then, it was Iori's destiny to have the oppurtunity to help Kyo/Chizuru. He didn't HAVE to take that chance though. Once could make an argument that his overcoming his hatred for Kyo was an overcoming of his destiny to help the cause of the Orochi characters. Also, regarding Leona, I just mean she wasn't actively helping Goenitz and friends with the revival of Orochi. ...okay, I'm -STILL- so confused! I love this thread. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:12:2002 08:42 PM: Kain: Terry, the legendary wolf...You're as good as I thought. Terry: Now you know, one can't live by strength alone. Kain: Yeah, one needs compassion. But it breeds conniving, bias. A lone wolf like you should know of what I speak. These days, no one has it... the vision to really live! Shadow Kain: All humans ARE islands unto themselves, I'm afraid. To realize their ideals, all must become more clever. You're far too nice. Too blinded by emotion. You can't end what you began! [after the battle] Shadow Kain: Unbelievable. So strong. Was I too optimistic? Kain: I despise conniving. But to get people to act...one cannot deny everything or try to eliminate all. Shadow Kain: Ugh. It seems...I was mistaken. You! You can make all my dreams a reality! It's time...to part. I return...to darkness. (Assuming SNK didn't butcher the translation,) Since Kain tells Terry that compassion basically = conniving yet agrees that one needs it (he then seems to be accusing Terry of allowing himself to be too blinded by it, I think), I think what Kain is trying to say to Shadow Kain when he says that one can not deny everything or try to eliminate all is that, even though he hates compassion, one can not wipe away all their compassion, or else one will never be able to act. He says that he despises it, but he also sees that it's necessary for one to have it. Shadow Kain then tells Kain that Shadow Kain was mistaken regarding how Kain was too weak thanks to his emotions, and thus even with emotions, Kain can still make their dreams a reality. After that, Shadow Kain returns to darkness. Basically, I think that Kain realizes that to do all or nothing while going after ideals is foolish, and that one can't do that and needs to at least have some compassion. One can not deny everything or try to eliminate all, after all One thing I really like about Kain is not only is he a multi-dimensional character with actual human emotions, he himself even acknowledges that he has these human emotions even though he knows it's a weakness Kain realizes that to lose your emotions is to lose your soul (and make yourself into a mere flat two-dimensional villain! ), even if he knows that and despises how emotions make you weaker because you can't be as ruthless and machiavaellian. It makes him one of my favorite fighting game villains ever, really As for where Kain was when Marie was dying, I have no clue. I don't even know if Kain hates/hated Geese or not anymore. But Kain DOES tell Rock that Marie's still alive... So where was Kain when Marie was dying? The answer to that question, assuming Kain's not lying, is that... it's a faulty question because Marie never died. ...damn, I really can't wait to see what plot Garou 2 has in store. A lot of these questions will never be answered until then, it seems... Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:12:2002 08:52 PM: See if Marie is alive that makes Kain even MORE conniving because he's just trying to get Rock on his side, so he's still messing with family. In a way Kain is of the same mentality as Rock in that he's fighting and continuing the Geese empire because he feels it's what he has to do. HOWEVER, keep in mind that the "Shadow" characters do not exist. And that in general when SNK has a Shadow version of the boss it alters the storyline slightly so that the one you're playing as becomes the good guy. Best example of this is in Kizuna Encounter. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:12:2002 09:07 PM: "See if Marie is alive that makes Kain even MORE conniving because he's just trying to get Rock on his side, so he's still messing with family." What can I say? Kain knows that compassion is a weakness and that it's a weakness that he can exploit in others if other people have it That doesn't mean that Kain himself has no compassion, though I always saw SNK's 'shadow matches' as introspectives into the characterization of the characters themselves instead of just altering the storyline. Most of them seem to be there to indicate what's going on in the main villain's head as the main villain plots something. The confrontations themselves obviously didn't happen, but I don't think the characters are actually twisted into OOCness (out-of-character) during the confrontation, either. At any rate, it doesn't really matter because Kain agrees with Terry that one needs compassion, too. The Shadow Kain match simply re-iterates this (which again, is why I think it's more a further introspection into Kain's character since it doesn't contradict anything). It's sort of like how Final Fight One is a further introspection into Cody's character when you play as Street Fighter Alpha Cody. While Cody time-travelling back into time obviously didn't happen, the dialogue there is a huge display of just how much Cody's character and personality had changed since Final Fight 1 took place. To the point where Belger offered to regular Cody to join Mad Gear, then when you fight him as Alpha 3 Cody, Belger tells Cody that, judging by the jail clothes, Cody really was Mad Gear material and SFA3 Cody basically responds with "Oh just shut up and fight me! That's all I care for and all I ever did!" This is a re-emphasis of SFA3 Cody's personality, which made me go back and read through Cody's SFA3 dialogue and realize just how true it was. SFA3 Cody, despite obviously never travelling back in time to fight Mad Gear again (the whole sillyness of some of the dialogues should show that), never acted out of character, either. It's also kind of how like even though Chun-Li's Street Fighter Alpha 3 plot didn't happen at all (completely contradicts Cammy's storyline, which did happen), her SFA3 plot still was shown to hammer home the point that she cared about the children!!! Which then goes into how she raises and trains a whole bunch of children in SF3 Third Strike. It's like how the New Faces Team fighting Orochi obviously didn't happen, but their ending shows (or at least, obviously tried to show ) what was going on in their minds as they killed themselves to revive Orochi. The shadow matches and most what-if things in fighting game storylines in general, while they definately didn't happen, show introspectives into the characterization which I'm pretty sure most definately is true. I figure that most storyline writers say "Well, if this event really didn't happen, we might as well at least use it to further emphasize or show another dimension of that character's personality." In fact, the only possible time I can think that a character acted out of character in any what-if storyline for Capcom and SNK was [possibly] Shadaloo Cammy in X-Men vs Street Fighter, and I'm pretty positive that's because Capcom wasn't even sure what they wanted Shadaloo Cammy to be during that time, yet (the amount of retroactive changes they had to make to Cammy's storyline shows that they obviously didn't plan it out very far in advance. Note that a storyline that is overridden by a later version does not count as a what-if storyline, such as how Street Fighter 2 Championship Edition is overridden by Street Fighter 2 Revival. It's not what-if if the storyline was made in error then replaced by a new one, after all) The fact that Kain turns around to look at the picture of Marie before most battles he fights when you fight him as most characters shows that that picture is definately there for more than just public image Posted by Psycho Power J on 04:12:2002 09:43 PM: Actually by definition a demon is any spiritual being not originating on our world that initially has evil intentions towards mankind. It appears to me that Morrigan is very much physical. And I wouldn't call her intentions "evil", more like self-gratification. Succubi in particular are clearly stated in multiple mythologies to originate and govern over parts of hell itself. Okay, now where did you get this? I never heard of succubi governing parts of hell besides the Capcom Makai. Not even in Dungueons and Dragons. What I know is succubi in general are minions of some greater evil. Also Makai the biblical hell. The nature of the people running the show in the GnG series, Firebrand saga, etc. should be proof enough of that. The parallels in these game storylines to already stated religous legends cannot be denied IMO. Even non-Capcom games like Demon's World/Horror Story, Legend of Makai/Makai Densetsu, etc. go by this logic. To put it in perspective, what you're saying is like saying vampires aren't affected by holy water because in the US version of Castlevania 1 it's called "Magical Fire Bomb" instead of Holy Water. But if Makai is the Biblical hell, wouldn't the inhabitant knew about the humans? The two world didn't knew about each other until the Gate between the two appeared. Nakoruru would understand it, however from a metaphysical standpoint it wouldn't matter to her. Morrigan is still something that should never exist on this plane and Nakoruru would therefore try to stop her from doing so. That's debatable. Practically any paranormal creature shouldn't exist in this plane, but you don't see Nakoruru doing something about it. I have to agree here. Rolento is one of my favorite Capcom characters but he's always portrayed as someone trying to make a comeback or regain lost glory. Heidern on the other hand has been at his PEAK performance for several years now and shows no signs of that performance level waning. He's already in control of and handling what Rolento WISHES he could. Poor Rolento. He never get a break does he? But I hope that he and Sodom finally make some lasting accomplishments. One hundred posts is nothing. Give us a few more days and questions. Morrigan I'm pretty sure does point out at points in the Darkstalkers series that she eats souls for breakfast. Also it's not out of hatred for babies that they try to give birth to them as often as possible, but because in many rituals that require a child sacrifice the child HAS to be unbaptized for it to work. The succubus being in control of the whole process tends to decrease the chances of this. Say what now? Why would devils sacrifice to anyone? Don't they hate life in general and just want to cause as much suffering as possible? And also, the Capcom succubi don't appear to need to feed on souls. They just need constant stimulation. The first myth that comes to mind concerning this is the birth of Merlin, who was originally part of a diabolical plan to aid and evil king but, his human mother was found by a pious friar and hidden, Merlin himself being baptized the second he was born. It's also interesting to note that even Merlin could not be killed, but in all known endings to the story he is either sealed away (Hey Orochi, Nak, move over I'm tryin' to get some sleep here ) or he lives on in a hidden cave. What does this has to do with anything? NeoRasa: I was going to go over the destiny thing again, but I realized that it's not something worth arguing over, so I'm just going with your view. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:12:2002 09:59 PM: Actually by definition a demon is any spiritual being not originating on our world that initially has evil intentions towards mankind. Succubi in particular are clearly stated in multiple mythologies to originate and govern over parts of hell itself. Also Makai is the biblical hell. The nature of the people running the show in the GnG series, Firebrand saga, etc. should be proof enough of that. The parallels in these game storylines to already stated religous legends cannot be denied IMO. Even non-Capcom games like Demon's World/Horror Story, Legend of Makai/Makai Densetsu, etc. go by this logic. To put it in perspective, what you're saying is like saying vampires aren't affected by holy water because in the US version of Castlevania 1 it's called "Magical Fire Bomb" instead of Holy Water. No, Makai is not the biblical hell. If it was, the Makai residents would've known about the human world's existance prior to the discovery of the gate connecting the two dimensions, but they didn't. It's not like the hell of Last Blade where people like Setsuna die, wind up in the Underworld and develope a hatred for all living things, then return to Earth and inhabitat a corpse to kill everything around them. Although I must admit that if Makai actually was hell, it'd be an interesting link to the SF universe. Then people who've died throught the series like Bison could come back as a really powerful Darkstalker and roam through the human world, while at the same time pissing Gill off. Posted by sano on 04:12:2002 11:05 PM: This article appeaared in "Game On! USA" issue #1 way back in '96. I'm gonna skip the bios and fighting moves section (Yay! Less Typing) and move on to wht's important. Ryu vs. Terry The Ultimate Death Match THE TITLE BOUT RAYMOND'S RATING A battle between these two veritable powerhouses would produce a very interesting, yet uncertain, conclusion. Ryu has many stregnths against Terry, especially with his ability to double-punch Terry when he is crouched on the ground, and Ryu's footsweep is much faster than Terry's. And of course, the Dragon Punch can counterattack anything that Terry does against Ryu, and this is Ryu's biggest advantage. This certainly means that there is no way Terry can use his famed "Fatal Fury" tactic to overwhelm Ryu. A Dragon Punch would definitely stop any of Terry's moves right dead in their tracks. Still, Terry is also very good at countering Ryu's moves. Ryu's slow fireball and zoning techniques will prove to be a bane, since Terry can either Power Dunk and hit Ryu out of fireball motion, or Rising Tackle Ryu out of it (if he's near enough). Also, Ryu's Hurricane Kick does not do much against Terry considering that when Terry does his fireball, he is to low to get hit anyway. Furthermore, Terry has a massive range with his sweep and douuble backfist. Terry's four-hit combo (Jumping Strong, then Strong Punch Double Hit, then a Power wave) does decent damage, and occasionally dizzies. Lastly, Terry still has the nasty desperation move, the Power Geyser. That move alone can take more than 50% of Ryu's life! When properly spaced as to avoid Ryu's Dragon Punch, it can finish Ryu off easily. So the conclusion is not certain. Surely both are great warriors, and neither is any less powerful than the other. In some ways, Ryu does have the advantage, especially if the player is very experienced with him and can perform Super Combos and quick Dragon Punches. But anything less than an expert will likely mean that Terry has the upper hand, because he is able to counterattack so many of Ryu's tactics. -Raymond Pat (I'll write down the rest of the article on Monday, so consider this Part 1! Later - sano). Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:12:2002 11:50 PM: TiamatRoar: I used to think the "Shadow" matches were further lookins into the boss' point of view as well, but the thing is the Kizuna Shadow match completely goes against this by changing major parts of the storyline in the process of telling things from King Lion's story. It appears to me that Morrigan is very much physical. And I wouldn't call her intentions "evil", more like self-gratification. Being a spirit means not having a physical form? Also isn't "living" for the sole purpose of selfgratification considered and evil in most mythologies in the first place (unless you're part of a pantheon of gods)? Okay, now where did you get this? I never heard of succubi governing parts of hell besides the Capcom Makai. Not even in Dungueons and Dragons. What I know is succubi in general are minions of some greater evil. Ugh D&D "mythology" Don't get me started. Seriously though try to check out "An Encyclopedia of Hell," and I'll look around the house and see if I can find some other books that have information directly pertaining to this. Also Makai the biblical hell. The nature of the people running the show in the GnG series, Firebrand saga, etc. should be proof enough of that. The parallels in these game storylines to already stated religous legends cannot be denied IMO. Even non-Capcom games like Demon's World/Horror Story, Legend of Makai/Makai Densetsu, etc. go by this logic. To put it in perspective, what you're saying is like saying vampires aren't affected by holy water because in the US version of Castlevania 1 it's called "Magical Fire Bomb" instead of Holy Water. But if Makai is the Biblical hell, wouldn't the inhabitant knew about the humans? The two world didn't knew about each other until the Gate between the two appeared. Think about it though, if hell is a place of existance like any other, than cataclysms of extinction level calibur can happen there too. If you look at the legends they speak of in Demon's Crest, etc. it's made clear that the demon and human worlds clearly know of each other's existance, but afterwards there's practically an armageddon on the demon world as Firebrand conquers it and disposes of the Crest of Heaven, his exploits along with those of Phalanx and the other events end up becoming legends and mythologies in and of themselves at the end. It actually makes sense that, since Darkstalkers takes place in a much more modern time, that word of a "human realm," etc. would be considered a fairy tale. I find it an interesting take on the subject because if you follow the progression of Makai-Mura/GnG, etc. up through Darkstalkers you can see hell "evolve" as a place and society as does our own world. I believe that Makai is intended to represent hell even more now that I've read the geographical description of it that was translated from the Capcom All About series. That's debatable. Practically any paranormal creature shouldn't exist in this plane, but you don't see Nakoruru doing something about it. How do you know she's not doing anything at all about it though? I mean she approaches almost any ghost/spirit creature in the SS series with lines like "Now feel nature's wrath." and "You offend mighty nature!" Poor Rolento. He never get a break does he? But I hope that he and Sodom finally make some lasting accomplishments. Sodom will open a fansub anime shop and Rolento will be the security guard. Morrigan I'm pretty sure does point out at points in the Darkstalkers series that she eats souls for breakfast. Also it's not out of hatred for babies that they try to give birth to them as often as possible, but because in many rituals that require a child sacrifice the child HAS to be unbaptized for it to work. The succubus being in control of the whole process tends to decrease the chances of this. Say what now? Why would devils sacrifice to anyone? Don't they hate life in general and just want to cause as much suffering as possible? And also, the Capcom succubi don't appear to need to feed on souls. They just need constant stimulation. A demon wouldn't, the idea is that the child is then delivered into the hands of humans who would as part of a much larger plan that would benefit mostly just the demons involved (benefit generally being for death, rampant self indulgence, etc. at the expense of other humans to be occurring as often as possible). What does this has to do with anything? It was an example of what I explained above. NeoRasa: I was going to go over the destiny thing again, but I realized that it's not something worth arguing over, so I'm just going with your view. My personal views of destiny, etc. are very different from what I'm stating here, I should have made it clear earlier but what I'm trying to do is explain what mindset was used for the Kyo/etc. Orochi storyline. I do plan on reresearching the original myths that the Orochi and Last Blade storylines are based on. Our views on Makai are, also, irreconsilable it seems because I'm trying to apply SNK's (and Capcom's original) mentality to them. I'm not viewing this as an argument at all, I'm sorry if my writing seems a little overbearing but I'm of the opinion that some kind of set-up for how the spirit-world "works" in SNKvsCapcom/CapcomvsSNK needs to be universally applied to all characters in order for a discussion of the more unearthly members of the company rosters to be possible. Although I must admit that if Makai actually was hell, it'd be an interesting link to the SF universe. Then people who've died throught the series like Bison could come back as a really powerful Darkstalker and roam through the human world, while at the same time pissing Gill off. Maybe that's where Gen, etc. are hanging out now that the SF3 series is going on. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:13:2002 12:11 AM: I believe that Makai is intended to represent hell even more now that I've read the geographical description of it that was translated from the Capcom All About series. Did you happen to read that from this web page? http://www.yuzuriha.sakura.ne.jp/~akikan/honyaku1.html If not, I suggest you go through Makai's history from there to see if your perspective on it is accurate. Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:13:2002 01:11 AM: Actually http://www.yuzuriha.sakura.ne.jp/~akikan/honyaku1.html is the translation I'm talking about. Look at the basic facts from here and in general: 1) Belial, also called The Devil in this translation, is the ruler of Makai and the head of the Aensland family. 2) There is a 3000km river of in Makai called "From Heaven to Hell." 3) Matairiku (Devil Continent) is in the middle of Makai. Here, "There's an unending pitch-black deep fault, there are trees of a forest moving weirdly, there is a cave filling miasma, there is a poisonous marsh, which will melt your bone when you fall into, and there are residents of darkness infesting innumerably." 4) Daimakai is a massive ocean of 10,000 degree celcius flame taking up the entire east side of the world. The west ocean completely iced over. 5) Makai means Devil. Makai-Mura = Devil World, etc. I think it's pretty obvious from the description they give what place Makai is supposed to be. A hell that is basically the biblical version with a dash of the Cenobite populated Clive Barker version thrown in so that it can be portrayed as a world with a society and what not (that would still be a "hell" to any normal human who were to visit it) despite being livable for the beings already originating there. The portion about the demons researching the gate that's already been there for who knows how long and learning about the human world from scratch after it was sealed up and forgotten by previous rulers sounds a lot like the theory I had concerning it as well. Posted by OrangeCat on 04:13:2002 06:36 AM: Despite this lovely arguement I wuv you all with the fury of ten thousand suns... Orange Cat Posted by Psycho Power J on 04:13:2002 07:00 AM: I think that shadow matches are intended to show internal conflicts, not a fight with a clone. Being a spirit means not having a physical form? Yes. Check a Webster's Dictionary; "an often malevolent being that is bodiless but can become visible." Also isn't "living" for the sole purpose of selfgratification considered and evil in most mythologies in the first place (unless you're part of a pantheon of gods)? It is considered evil in many mythologies. I can see why you'd think Nakoruru would attack Morrigan. For me, it's just selfish, not evil. Maybe it's because of the psychology I've been learning recently. I really don't consider anyone to be good or evil. Ugh D&D "mythology" Don't get me started. Don't diss D&D. Seriously though try to check out "An Encyclopedia of Hell," and I'll look around the house and see if I can find some other books that have information directly pertaining to this. You better do that. I don't have that book and I don't think my local library would be packing something like that. Think about it though, if hell is a place of existance like any other, than cataclysms of extinction level calibur can happen there too. If you look at the legends they speak of in Demon's Crest, etc. it's made clear that the demon and human worlds clearly know of each other's existance, but afterwards there's practically an armageddon on the demon world as Firebrand conquers it and disposes of the Crest of Heaven, his exploits along with those of Phalanx and the other events end up becoming legends and mythologies in and of themselves at the end. It actually makes sense that, since Darkstalkers takes place in a much more modern time, that word of a "human realm," etc. would be considered a fairy tale. I find it an interesting take on the subject because if you follow the progression of Makai-Mura/GnG, etc. up through Darkstalkers you can see hell "evolve" as a place and society as does our own world. I believe that Makai is intended to represent hell even more now that I've read the geographical description of it that was translated from the Capcom All About series. Please try to avoid citing other games. I haven't even played half the ones that you mentioned. How do you know she's not doing anything at all about it though? I mean she approaches almost any ghost/spirit creature in the SS series with lines like "Now feel nature's wrath." and "You offend mighty nature!" Can you give one example? I don't know what they say in japanese so I don't bother listening to their quotes. A demon wouldn't, the idea is that the child is then delivered into the hands of humans who would as part of a much larger plan that would benefit mostly just the demons involved (benefit generally being for death, rampant self indulgence, etc. at the expense of other humans to be occurring as often as possible). You mean that the child is born evil? Because I don't see how giving people a non-evil child would do much for the demons. It was an example of what I explained above. Sorry, I didn't see the relation the first time I looked at it. My personal views of destiny, etc. are very different from what I'm stating here, I should have made it clear earlier but what I'm trying to do is explain what mindset was used for the Kyo/etc. Orochi storyline. I do plan on reresearching the original myths that the Orochi and Last Blade storylines are based on. I'm guessing here, but I think what you've been trying to say is that destiny isn't one absolute path, but many set paths that a person can choose from with their own will. Or at least, one intended path that a person may or may not choose to follow. Our views on Makai are, also, irreconsilable it seems because I'm trying to apply SNK's (and Capcom's original) mentality to them. I'm not viewing this as an argument at all, I'm sorry if my writing seems a little overbearing but I'm of the opinion that some kind of set-up for how the spirit-world "works" in SNKvsCapcom/CapcomvsSNK needs to be universally applied to all characters in order for a discussion of the more unearthly members of the company rosters to be possible. That's okay. We're not suppose to be mixing the two worlds anyway. Although I must admit that if Makai actually was hell, it'd be an interesting link to the SF universe. Then people who've died throught the series like Bison could come back as a really powerful Darkstalker and roam through the human world, while at the same time pissing Gill off. Maybe that's where Gen, etc. are hanging out now that the SF3 series is going on. I think this brings up the question of whether the souls of the dead go to Makai. I don't think they do, otherwise the inhabitants would have known about it. But if it is, I wonder if Gouken is having tea with his master, Goutetsu? I think it's pretty obvious from the description they give what place Makai is supposed to be. A hell that is basically the biblical version with a dash of the Cenobite populated Clive Barker version thrown in so that it can be portrayed as a world with a society and what not (that would still be a "hell" to any normal human who were to visit it) despite being livable for the beings already originating there. The portion about the demons researching the gate that's already been there for who knows how long and learning about the human world from scratch after it was sealed up and forgotten by previous rulers sounds a lot like the theory I had concerning it as well. I think that no matter how you view hell, the biblical version all involve the souls of evil people going there. With Makai, that's uncertain. Despite this lovely arguement I wuv you all with the fury of ten thousand suns... Orange Cat Ph33l th3 l0v3 Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:13:2002 04:58 PM: Yes. Check a Webster's Dictionary; "an often malevolent being that is bodiless but can become visible." Being visible is being in a physical form (gaseous, but still physical). It is considered evil in many mythologies. I can see why you'd think Nakoruru would attack Morrigan. For me, it's just selfish, not evil. Maybe it's because of the psychology I've been learning recently. I really don't consider anyone to be good or evil. Well understand that Nakoruru, etc. are based on some very early mindsets an mythologies, and I doubt they share the more vague notion of "good" and "evil" that you see Andy Bogard discussing at the end of KoF'97 when he ponders if maybe Orochi succeeding may have been for the better. Don't diss D&D. <3rd Edition Artwork>Hi my arm is overextended the wrong way and my hands are flipped. My legs are half the size they should be. You better do that. I don't have that book and I don't think my local library would be packing something like that. I'll see what I can find. If you order stuff online you may also be interested in The Highgate Vampire. http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/talkwale...ranscript.shtml Please try to avoid citing other games. I haven't even played half the ones that you mentioned. I can't avoid citing games made by Capcom or SNK in a Capcom vs. SNK thread! I cited these other games because they all deal with Makai in one way or another. Here's the full list of non Darkstalkers Capcom games that have something to do with it: Demon's Crest / Demon's Blazon Ghosts 'N Goblins / Makai-Mura Ghouls 'N Ghosts / Dai-Makai-Mura Gargoyle's Quest / Red Arremer Gargoyle's Quest 2 / Red Arremer Super Ghouls 'N Ghosts / Chou-Makai-Mura All should be played immediately because the character designs give a further insight into the nature of Makai and all of these games kick ass (Demon's Crest is especially superb). Capcom is amazing for taking the annoying Red Arremer demon from the GnG series and making a series of truly kickass adventure games based on him. Can you give one example? I don't know what they say in japanese so I don't bother listening to their quotes. These are all written on-screen in English texts that pop up before and after certain fights. A demon wouldn't, the idea is that the child is then delivered into the hands of humans who would as part of a much larger plan that would benefit mostly just the demons involved (benefit generally being for death, rampant self indulgence, etc. at the expense of other humans to be occurring as often as possible). You mean that the child is born evil? Because I don't see how giving people a non-evil child would do much for the demons. It's not born evil, but the way it would work is that by not being baptized the child was more vulnerable to evil and corruption than normal. Even that late eighties crock of a movie Warlock specifies that the needs to drink a potion containing the boiled fat of an unbaptized child to regain the ability to fly. Sorry, I didn't see the relation the first time I looked at it. Yeah I should have come up with a more immediately recognizeable example (preferably something from one of these games). I'm guessing here, but I think what you've been trying to say is that destiny isn't one absolute path, but many set paths that a person can choose from with their own will. Or at least, one intended path that a person may or may not choose to follow. Yes, that's the viewpoint SNK's storylines are taking on it. That's okay. We're not suppose to be mixing the two worlds anyway. Eh, we're mixing the characters, me may as well give them a nice place to battle on. I think this brings up the question of whether the souls of the dead go to Makai. I don't think they do, otherwise the inhabitants would have known about it. But if it is, I wonder if Gouken is having tea with his master, Goutetsu? It's quite possible. Hell maybe they're just really bored so they have Akuma/Gouki go around and SgS Street Fighters so they have more people to hang out with. They could be in that one crevasse of the Daimakai that no one visits. I think that no matter how you view hell, the biblical version all involve the souls of evil people going there. With Makai, that's uncertain. It is uncertain, but that doesn't automatically invalidate it. It's uncertain why Geese Howard left Marie Heinlein but that doesn't mean that any theorized reason is wrong by default. At this time I see nothing that disproves my theory and some things that would help validate it so I'm going to stick with it for now. Orange Cat I love you so. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:13:2002 08:04 PM: 1) Belial, also called The Devil in this translation, is the ruler of Makai and the head of the Aensland family. I actually think this is wrong in the translation. Berial (I'm using the name in the US version) died some time after fighting Demitri, so portraying him as The Devil just doesn't seem right knowing this fact. Berial having died in Makai would've meant the end of his existance, if it was in fact hell. If you die anywhere in the afterlife, then what place is left for your soul? And there were many demons who aimed to rule Makai, so I think Berial would be better referred to as just the most powerful ruler among them. Also......... Eh, we're mixing the characters, me may as well give them a nice place to battle on. Berial being The Devil certainly wouldn't make sense when combining the DS/SS/LB portions of the two universes. Before, you said Amakusa was the Satan. You can't have them both existing at once as the same entity, can you? I await your response. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:13:2002 08:10 PM: I'm pretty sure the Makai in Firebrand and all those other Capcom games is different from the Makai in the Darkstalkers series. They seem nothing alike to me in terms of internal politics and culture I could be wrong, though. I'm not a Darkstalkers guru by any means. Posted by Psycho Power J on 04:13:2002 09:21 PM: 1) Belial, also called The Devil in this translation, is the ruler of Makai and the head of the Aensland family. You can call me The Devil and make me the ruler of the world, but would it make this world hell? (no comments on how I'll become a tyrannical dictator please) 5) Makai means Devil. Makai-Mura = Devil World, etc. I believe they call Guatemala "hell" in WWII. Does it make it hell? Being visible is being in a physical form (gaseous, but still physical). Why is being visible the same as being physical? Gas can't pass through an airtight wall, yet you can see visible ghosts doing it on a regular basis (in stories and movies anyway). I think that being ethereal is the term for it. Besides, why do you expect spirits to follow natural laws? I cited these other games because they all deal with Makai in one way or another. Here's the full list of non Darkstalkers Capcom games that have something to do with it: Demon's Crest / Demon's Blazon Ghosts 'N Goblins / Makai-Mura Ghouls 'N Ghosts / Dai-Makai-Mura Gargoyle's Quest / Red Arremer Gargoyle's Quest 2 / Red Arremer Super Ghouls 'N Ghosts / Chou-Makai-Mura Capcom is amazing for taking the annoying Red Arremer demon from the GnG series and making a series of truly kickass adventure games based on him. What console(s) are they on? I've played Ghosts 'N Goblins and maybe Ghouls 'N Ghosts, but I think I remember not getting farther than a few stages. These are all written on-screen in English texts that pop up before and after certain fights. Really!? I wonder why I didn't notice it before... oh wait, I've only been recently interested in fighting games. I must have been playing a beat-em-up game at the time. It's not born evil, but the way it would work is that by not being baptized the child was more vulnerable to evil and corruption than normal. Even that late eighties crock of a movie Warlock specifies that the needs to drink a potion containing the boiled fat of an unbaptized child to regain the ability to fly. Ah, I understand now. It is uncertain, but that doesn't automatically invalidate it. It's uncertain why Geese Howard left Marie Heinlein but that doesn't mean that any theorized reason is wrong by default. At this time I see nothing that disproves my theory and some things that would help validate it so I'm going to stick with it for now. This could go either way, so we'll just wait for some more information from Capcom. I wonder when they'll release Vampire Soldier? Eh, we're mixing the characters, we may as well give them a nice place to battle on. It's confusing enough to try and combine two fighting worlds together. Combining more than that would just leave us with a jumbled mess. And we're just analyzing and comparing characters, not try to make sense of game worlds. If it's worth talking about though, we should make another thread. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:13:2002 10:01 PM: It's confusing enough to try and combine two fighting worlds together. Combining more than that would just leave us with a jumbled mess. And we're just analyzing and comparing characters, not try to make sense of game worlds. If it's worth talking about though, we should make another thread. That's actually one of the primary things this thread was made for; to determine how they would both interact with each other based on what we know about them so that we can get more insight, not JUST comparing the characters and certainly NOT arguing which side would win. Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:14:2002 03:37 AM: That's actually one of the primary things this thread was made for; to determine how they would both interact with each other based on what we know about them so that we can get more insight, not JUST comparing the characters and certainly NOT arguing which side would win. Yeah I didn't think the things I was posting were really going offtopic in that respect, I mean that's what the thread was started for right? You can call me The Devil and make me the ruler of the world, but would it make this world hell? (no comments on how I'll become a tyrannical dictator please) That's too hypothetical a point though because you are not The Devil. I believe they call Guatemala "hell" in WWII. Does it make it hell? Again the difference is that referring to Guatemala as "Hell" during WWII was a metaphor. Makai literally means "devil." Makai-Mura literally means Devil World. All of the Makai-Mura enemies are drawn as demons. Also going back this far Lucifer himself was in charge of it (this was before the Garoyle's Quest series and Demon's Crest happened, which I believe was inbetween the GnG and DS storylines). Why is being visible the same as being physical? Gas can't pass through an airtight wall, yet you can see visible ghosts doing it on a regular basis (in stories and movies anyway). I think that being ethereal is the term for it. Besides, why do you expect spirits to follow natural laws? I don't expect them to follow naturaly laws, I'm just saying several types can if they choose. Also by definition being visible to the naked eye is being physical. Barring an abhorrent mental condition you can't see something with your eyes that isn't physically there. Being ethereal and being gaseous are also the same thing (it came from "aether" after all). Demon's Crest / Demon's Blazon ~ SNES Ghosts 'N Goblins / Makai-Mura ~ Arcade Ghouls 'N Ghosts / Dai-Makai-Mura ~ Arcade/NES/Genesis Gargoyle's Quest / Red Arremer ~ GB Gargoyle's Quest 2 / Red Arremer ~ NES Super Ghouls 'N Ghosts / Chou-Makai-Mura ~ SNES If you import often you can find most all of the GnG games on the Capcom Generations compilation series on the Saturn and PSX as well. Really!? I wonder why I didn't notice it before... oh wait, I've only been recently interested in fighting games. I must have been playing a beat-em-up game at the time. Some catch up study is required then, go play fighting games a lot! I actually think this is wrong in the translation. Berial (I'm using the name in the US version) died some time after fighting Demitri, so portraying him as The Devil just doesn't seem right knowing this fact. Berial having died in Makai would've meant the end of his existance, if it was in fact hell. If you die anywhere in the afterlife, then what place is left for your soul? It's rumored that if you "die" in the afterlife you get reincarnated in the human realm. That every death that happens in one world is the equivalent to a child being born on another. Also why does Belial dying in Makai = the end of Makai? As I said though Capcom is having their "hell" evolve and HAVE ongoing politics and struggles, so why not have Belial die? It's like how in the Resident Evil storylines everything starts out fine, then eventually the T-/G-Virus starts doing whatever best sets up the next boss fight/dialogue/puzzle. The realworld constraints of having an ongoing videogames storyline have to be taken into account (if they weren't KoF'94 probably wouldn't exist the way we know it). And there were many demons who aimed to rule Makai, so I think Berial would be better referred to as just the most powerful ruler among them. You have a point. However that, by definition, is what the biblical version of The Devil is. A normal Angel who happens to be the most charismatic and the greatest leader of the ones who opposed God's will and viewpoint on humanity. Berial being The Devil certainly wouldn't make sense when combining the DS/SS/LB portions of the two universes. Before, you said Amakusa was the Satan. You can't have them both existing at once as the same entity, can you? I'm sorry I thought you were more familiar with that legend, I'll clarify it here: Amakusa Shiro Tokisada is the Anti-Christ (not The Devil) in the non SS legends. This reputation was gained via his leading a Christian rebellion in the Shimbara region of Japan against the taxes/etc. oppression of the rulers (this was in the 1630's). His charisma earned him titles like Heavenly Master and Child of God. Though the rebellion was crushed Amakusa's body was never found...... The SS storyline picks up a little later , with Amakusa's desire for revenge causing him to reawaken as the Anti-Christ. They actually recycled this very plot for Ninja Ressurrection (Basara look alike getting out in the second part and all). Still though, when dealing with beings like Belial, etc. that are more concept than corporeal, I'm not sure if there's really a reason for them to NOT be able to exist simultaneously. Do we know what Belial's situation was in the 1600's (assuming time passes constantly and consistently between the two worlds)? During the 1600's Lucifer could have been busy furthing earlthy strife in Europe during the GnG games (I'm not sure if they placed these games in the proper time frame to have King Arthur in them, but I'll research this further). Or the chaos going on in Makai from King Agon's capture, and all the other things going on throughout the Gargoyle's Quest games could have been the catalyst that let the gate be loose enough for Amakusa to come back. There's lots of fun ways to look at it and my only regret is not having the time to delve into each one as completely as possible. I await your response. I'm honored. Posted by Ultima on 04:14:2002 06:11 AM: I would have been here sooner, but this is the first time I've been here in about 10 days. Anyway: re: Vega vs. Yamazaki A little old, but I wanted to say a few things. I think Vega has the advantage: He beats Yamazaki in speed, agility and range. They're both psychotic, but under "normal" circumstances I think Vega is more controlled than Yamazaki, and can beat Zaki by keeping away and slashing him to pieces. However, Vega has a very exploitable weakness, namely his face. If Yamazaki manages to get close enough to put a big hurting on Vega's face, Vega goes (more) nuts, leaving him open to attack. It could go either way really, but I still think Vega has the advantage. re: Gouki vs. Kyo/Iori Gouki's getting almost stupidly DBZ-like in the power level. Kyo and Iori are very powerful but even together I don't think they could take out mountain rages and split mesas like Goku... er, Gouki can. bleh: Iori and Gouki are set up as rivals (in CvS1/MotM right? Not in CvS2) because they're similar storywise - i.e. they're both rivals to the main heroes (Kyo/Ryu respectively) and are constantly looking to fight/kill them. Ryu has more rivals (Sagat/Ken/Gouki) that Kyo does though, and Iori doesn't really fit precisely into any one of them. Actually, I think Iori's really more of a combination of all three of them. In terms of power level, I think CvS2 has it (more) right by pairing off Gouki with Rugal. re: Morrigan vs. Nakoruru Hey Neo Rasa. I'm not sold on Nakoruru's power, even as a spirit of nature. She may be immortal/indestructible, but her human form (with which she exacts nature's wrath) doesn't seem to be anything really special. There's nothing in the SS series (even post SS2, after which she combines with nature or whatever the hell she does in her SS2 ending) to suggest that she wields any real kind of power. Until she starts using actual natural phenomena to defeat her foes a la Storm (Mamahaha being able to throw hurricanes in SS3 notwithstanding) or whatever, she just seems to be a sword-wielding human (albeit probably a very skilled one) with an unkillable spirit. Morrigan may not be able to kill her, but she could easily obliterate her human form in 1 on 1 combat. Also, I though Takky-Nakky was a spirit of nature, not the spirit of nature? Where does it say that she's the equivalent to mother nature/Gaia? re: Makai I'm no expert on Makai, but I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that the devil world of the Vampire/Dark Stalker series is the same as in Capcom's other games. The GnG games and the Gargoyle's Crest games are related, obviously, but I won't assume there's any connection between them and DS until it's explicitly stated. A question: Where does it say that Last Blade/Samurai Shodown have connection to the rest of the SNK games? I can see Last Blade having a connection (one of the LB character's is related to Eiji Kisaragi right?), but I think SS exists in a vacuum. Please point out where it explicitly prooves SS exists in the same universe as the other SNK games (the cameos of Kim, Mai and Todo in SS1/2 don't count), even if the timeline doesn't conflict with other games; otherwise I refuse to believe it. To me it's like saying that Soul Blade/Calibur and Tekken exist in the same universe. And finally Rasa, why do you keep mentioning Savage Reign and Kizuna Encounter? Shit man, nobody gives a rat's ass about those games. Just like nobody gives a shit about Star Gladiator/Plasma Sword and Tech Romancer. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:14:2002 07:37 AM: It's rumored that if you "die" in the afterlife you get reincarnated in the human realm. That every death that happens in one world is the equivalent to a child being born on another. Now that you mention it, it's actually a good theory. There was once a case in which a girl with mental problems seemed to have recalled events that couldn't have possibly happened in her lifetime under hypnosis. I always knew you could look into the soul through hypnotism, but the discovery of reincarnation by it never came to me as possible. There was a lot of resulting skepticism on the matter. Some were of the opinion that the girl was speaking as one of her multiple personalities and that she was never hypnotized, while others believed that she may have actually remembered those events from past lives. This patient went by the name of Bridey Murphy. I don’t know if I spelled it right, but you should be able to look it up as there were books written on this case. There’s just one thing that comes to mind that contradicts that theory, though. How exactly can one expire in the afterlife? This isn't something that’s addressed anywhere in religious teachings, is it? When you expire from your body, you technically exist from there on as your own soul, thus to "die" in the afterlife would mean the end of your existence. Part of what defines a soul is that it absolutely cannot be destroyed. This is why it is often believed that where your soul is taken to is where you remain for all eternity. In short, reincarnation could indeed exist. I just don't think one can be reborn through "dying" as a spirit, because that shouldn't be conceived as biblically possible. Also why does Belial dying in Makai = the end of Makai? As I said though Capcom is having their "hell" evolve and HAVE ongoing politics and struggles, so why not have Belial die? ??? I never said Berial's death in Makai would mean the end of Makai's existence. Read those statements in my last post again very carefully. Given what I stated above on how the soul is partially defined, that would technically make Berial's death in Makai the end of HIS existence, if Makai really was the biblical hell and not just some alternate dimension. Also, I don’t think the inhabitants of hell can be reincarnated in the human realm upon death. You have a point. However that, by definition, is what the biblical version of The Devil is. A normal Angel who happens to be the most charismatic and the greatest leader of the ones who opposed God's will and viewpoint on humanity. That would currently make Morrigan The Devil then, because she’s the heir to the Aensland throne. Amakusa Shiro Tokisada is the Anti-Christ (not The Devil) in the non SS legends. Aren’t the Anti-Christ and The Devil one in the same? This reputation was gained via his leading a Christian rebellion in the Shimbara region of Japan against the taxes/etc. oppression of the rulers (this was in the 1630's). His charisma earned him titles like Heavenly Master and Child of God. Though the rebellion was crushed Amakusa's body was never found...... The SS storyline picks up a little later , with Amakusa's desire for revenge causing him to reawaken as the Anti-Christ. They actually recycled this very plot for Ninja Ressurrection (Basara look alike getting out in the second part and all). Still though, when dealing with beings like Belial, etc. that are more concept than corporeal, I'm not sure if there's really a reason for them to NOT be able to exist simultaneously. Do we know what Belial's situation was in the 1600's (assuming time passes constantly and consistently between the two worlds)? During the 1600's Lucifer could have been busy furthing earlthy strife in Europe during the GnG games (I'm not sure if they placed these games in the proper time frame to have King Arthur in them, but I'll research this further). Or the chaos going on in Makai from King Agon's capture, and all the other things going on throughout the Gargoyle's Quest games could have been the catalyst that let the gate be loose enough for Amakusa to come back. There's lots of fun ways to look at it and my only regret is not having the time to delve into each one as completely as possible. I’m not gonna argue here. Berial’s been long dead before the 1600’s, so I guess a backstory could be made where he gets reincarnated as Amakusa....... IF he is Satan, the Anti-Christ, The Devil, Lucifer, and any other name he’s been known as throughout history. To me it's like saying that Soul Blade/Calibur and Tekken exist in the same universe. They don't? Isn't Yoshimitsu in Soul Calibur? And finally Rasa, why do you keep mentioning Savage Reign and Kizuna Encounter? Shit man, nobody gives a rat's ass about those games. Just like nobody gives a shit about Star Gladiator/Plasma Sword and Tech Romancer. Posted by Psycho Power J on 04:14:2002 11:18 AM: That's actually one of the primary things this thread was made for; to determine how they would both interact with each other based on what we know about them so that we can get more insight, not JUST comparing the characters and certainly NOT arguing which side would win. Really? I guess we'll just keep going then. Again the difference is that referring to Guatemala as "Hell" during WWII was a metaphor. Makai literally means "devil." Makai-Mura literally means Devil World. All of the Makai-Mura enemies are drawn as demons. Also going back this far Lucifer himself was in charge of it (this was before the Garoyle's Quest series and Demon's Crest happened, which I believe was inbetween the GnG and DS storylines). What? I thought we were talking about Makai? How did Lucifer get there? Oh yeah, we're mixing worlds. Just because the name Makai-Mura literally means devil world, doesn't make it the biblical hell. We could call this world Makai-Mura and it wouldn't make it the biblical hell. Names shouldn't be used as proof. I don't expect them to follow naturaly laws, I'm just saying several types can if they choose. Also by definition being visible to the naked eye is being physical. Barring an abhorrent mental condition you can't see something with your eyes that isn't physically there. Being ethereal and being gaseous are also the same thing (it came from "aether" after all). Being visible is being physical? A hologram is visible, but it's not physical (unless you want go through all those things about light waves being both waves and particles). And being ethereal and gaseous are not the same thing. Ether is a substance that is suppose to be finer than anything else and can pass through any substance. Demon's Crest / Demon's Blazon ~ SNES Ghosts 'N Goblins / Makai-Mura ~ Arcade Ghouls 'N Ghosts / Dai-Makai-Mura ~ Arcade/NES/Genesis Gargoyle's Quest / Red Arremer ~ GB Gargoyle's Quest 2 / Red Arremer ~ NES Super Ghouls 'N Ghosts / Chou-Makai-Mura ~ SNES If you import often you can find most all of the GnG games on the Capcom Generations compilation series on the Saturn and PSX as well. I'll try to see what I can scrounge up. It's rumored that if you "die" in the afterlife you get reincarnated in the human realm. That every death that happens in one world is the equivalent to a child being born on another. It's the reincarnation theory. I see a lot of that in both anime and videogames. I wouldn't say it's rumored, since it's a belief. You have a point. However that, by definition, is what the biblical version of The Devil is. A normal Angel who happens to be the most charismatic and the greatest leader of the ones who opposed God's will and viewpoint on humanity.[/N] Except that the Makai being Berial is not opposed to Heaven and God. I don't think there is any reference to a relation between Makai and heaven mentioned in all the Darkstalkers series, with the exception of Hsien-ko and her sister's dead mother. Names for geographic features don't count, because I don't think they really connect Makai and heaven. Else we'd have angels and heavenly beings by now. I'm sorry I thought you were more familiar with that legend, I'll clarify it here: Amakusa Shiro Tokisada is the Anti-Christ (not The Devil) in the non SS legends. This reputation was gained via his leading a Christian rebellion in the Shimbara region of Japan against the taxes/etc. oppression of the rulers (this was in the 1630's). His charisma earned him titles like Heavenly Master and Child of God. Though the rebellion was crushed Amakusa's body was never found...... The SS storyline picks up a little later , with Amakusa's desire for revenge causing him to reawaken as the Anti-Christ. They actually recycled this very plot for Ninja Ressurrection (Basara look alike getting out in the second part and all). Still though, when dealing with beings like Belial, etc. that are more concept than corporeal, I'm not sure if there's really a reason for them to NOT be able to exist simultaneously. Do we know what Belial's situation was in the 1600's (assuming time passes constantly and consistently between the two worlds)? During the 1600's Lucifer could have been busy furthing earlthy strife in Europe during the GnG games (I'm not sure if they placed these games in the proper time frame to have King Arthur in them, but I'll research this further). Or the chaos going on in Makai from King Agon's capture, and all the other things going on throughout the Gargoyle's Quest games could have been the catalyst that let the gate be loose enough for Amakusa to come back. There's lots of fun ways to look at it and my only regret is not having the time to delve into each one as completely as possible. Comparing worlds is one thing. But like I said, combining more than two worlds would leave us with a jumbled mess. I'm not going to sort through what you said to try and make sense of it. I'll leave this for somebody else. re: Vega vs. Yamazaki A little old, but I wanted to say a few things. I think Vega has the advantage: He beats Yamazaki in speed, agility and range. They're both psychotic, but under "normal" circumstances I think Vega is more controlled than Yamazaki, and can beat Zaki by keeping away and slashing him to pieces. However, Vega has a very exploitable weakness, namely his face. If Yamazaki manages to get close enough to put a big hurting on Vega's face, Vega goes (more) nuts, leaving him open to attack. It could go either way really, but I still think Vega has the advantage. I'm also going for Vega. His face is a weakness, but then that's what the mask is for. re: Morrigan vs. Nakoruru Hey Neo Rasa. I'm not sold on Nakoruru's power, even as a spirit of nature. She may be immortal/indestructible, but her human form (with which she exacts nature's wrath) doesn't seem to be anything really special. There's nothing in the SS series (even post SS2, after which she combines with nature or whatever the hell she does in her SS2 ending) to suggest that she wields any real kind of power. Until she starts using actual natural phenomena to defeat her foes a la Storm (Mamahaha being able to throw hurricanes in SS3 notwithstanding) or whatever, she just seems to be a sword-wielding human (albeit probably a very skilled one) with an unkillable spirit. Morrigan may not be able to kill her, but she could easily obliterate her human form in 1 on 1 combat. Ultima brings up a good point. Does Nakoruru showed any influence on nature that would give her immense power? Being immortal won't raise a person up a tier if they are still weak. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:14:2002 05:48 PM: I always saw Makai as an alternate dimension rather than hell, because it's pretty certain that no dead people go there, or else we would have had a character by now who would have been recalling his life on earth before he died or anything. And again, I'm pretty positive that the Makai in the Firebrand and Ghouls and Ghosts series is not the same Makai as the Darkstalkers series. All About Vampire Savior goes in-depth into Makai's political history for like thousands of years -and it's nothing like Firebrand and Ghouls and Ghosts. Furthermore, to Makai, they didn't even -know that earth EXISTED- for the longest time. It wasn't until Jedah stumbled across Earth by ACCIDENT that the Darkstalkers and residents of Makai found out about earth. The biblical hell, meanwhile, knows all about Earth and Satan is always tempting people of earth in order to make them fall and all that, while Berial in the Darkstalker's Makai was basically just another powerful lord of Makai. And if Makai is hell, what does that make it's little clone sister, Majiden, that Jedah created? And also, names are very poor evidence, I think. If names were good evidence, then Vanilla Ice in Jojo's Bizarre Adventure would really be THE Vanilla Ice, and Kenny G THE Kenny G. Last I checked, Vanilla Ice in the real world generally wore PANTS and didn't have the ability to eat himself to make himself into a void that consumed everything it touched, and Kenny G with his Tenor Sax didn't have the ability to create an illusionary MC Escher Labyrinth, and Terrence T. Darby wasn't a video game addict who could capture your soul if you lost to him in a video game... Capcom naming Darkstalker characters and locations after biblical hell things is merely an allusion, just like Araki naming JJBA characters after music characters, and it doesn't make those characters the actual biblical hell versions. The fact that Makai (which again, is different from the Makai in Firebrand) in general differs so much from the biblical hell despite the names should make this obvious, I think. Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:14:2002 06:16 PM: Hey Neo Rasa. I'm not sold on Nakoruru's power, even as a spirit of nature. She may be immortal/indestructible, but her human form (with which she exacts nature's wrath) doesn't seem to be anything really special. There's nothing in the SS series (even post SS2, after which she combines with nature or whatever the hell she does in her SS2 ending) to suggest that she wields any real kind of power. Until she starts using actual natural phenomena to defeat her foes a la Storm (Mamahaha being able to throw hurricanes in SS3 notwithstanding) or whatever, she just seems to be a sword-wielding human (albeit probably a very skilled one) with an unkillable spirit. Morrigan may not be able to kill her, but she could easily obliterate her human form in 1 on 1 combat. If you'll reread my post concerning Nakoruru's current nature ( ), you'll noticed that I don't say anything concerning Nakoruru being extremely powerful, I'm simply mentioning that she cannot be destroyed and is eternally aligned with what Morrigan would represent the opposite of on this planet, which last time I checked was good reasoning for a rivalry. Again though, her physical form can be just about anything and the destruction of a human avatar of her pre-SS2 ending form isn't going to mean all that much to her in the long run. Also, I though Takky-Nakky was a spirit of nature, not the spirit of nature? Where does it say that she's the equivalent to mother nature/Gaia? Everything in nature is a part of mother nature/Gaia, that's why it can't be permanently destroyed. Since in both universes at this time Nakoruru is the only being taking human form and being a literal part of nature, from the standpoint of a human in the SNK/Capcom universe she would be Gaia. Of course there are possible exceptions like Jyazu if I start discussing the allegorical conflicts behind your favorte fighting game that starts with a K and ends with an A. A question: Where does it say that Last Blade/Samurai Shodown have connection to the rest of the SNK games? I can see Last Blade having a connection (one of the LB character's is related to Eiji Kisaragi right?), but I think SS exists in a vacuum. Zantetsu Kisaragi is Eiji Kisaragi's great great great...you get the idea, it's specified in his LB2 ending. Please point out where it explicitly prooves SS exists in the same universe as the other SNK games (the cameos of Kim, Mai and Todo in SS1/2 don't count), even if the timeline doesn't conflict with other games; otherwise I refuse to believe it. To me it's like saying that Soul Blade/Calibur and Tekken exist in the same universe. Soul Blade/Calibur and Tekken are in the same universe. Besides if you want to look into it a little more, look at the era when it's said a female Orochi devotee attempted to ressurrect it/merge with it in order to destroy the world. Look at when Rashoujin Mizuki rises to power in SSII, destroys Amakusa, and makes a big skull appear in the sky that annihilates everything if you don't murder her. One minor tidbit thing that seems interesting (I don't really think it's evidence of the above) is that only other time I see extensive skull imagery in all of Neo Geo era SNK is in Orochi-related dms/sdms and in the "Gate to Hell" near death backgrounds in Samurai Shodown III and IV. And finally Rasa, why do you keep mentioning Savage Reign and Kizuna Encounter? Shit man, nobody gives a rat's ass about those games. Just like nobody gives a shit about Star Gladiator/Plasma Sword and Tech Romancer. 1) Nobody giving a shit about said games does not invalidate their existance. 2) If you reread this thread you'll notice that (aside from this post obviously) I only mention Savage Reign/Kizuna Encounter at two points, being: """"""I used to think the "Shadow" matches were further lookins into the boss' point of view as well, but the thing is the Kizuna Shadow match completely goes against this by changing major parts of the storyline in the process of telling things from King Lion's story."""""" Which is relevant because the situation being described is one of a very few times in SNK where said situation even HAPPENS. and, """"""I don't even want to get started about Savage Reign/Kizuna Encounter/etc.""""""" You'll note that due to general lack of interest, I, contrary to "keep on mentioning" them actually specify that I will be doing the opposite. However, since you've mentioned them in a thread contributing nothing else to the topics at hand other than "Hi. I disagree with you. Bye." I'll stop discussing all previously covered topics immediately and devote my next post(s) to a write up and explanation of the events of Savage Reign and Kizuna Encounter just for you. Does Ultimy-Wultimy feel better noooow? Now that you mention it, it's actually a good theory. There was once a case in which a girl with mental problems seemed to have recalled events that couldn't have possibly happened in her lifetime under hypnosis. I always knew you could look into the soul through hypnotism, but the discovery of reincarnation by it never came to me as possible. There was a lot of resulting skepticism on the matter. Some were of the opinion that the girl was speaking as one of her multiple personalities and that she was never hypnotized, while others believed that she may have actually remembered those events from past lives. This patient went by the name of Bridey Murphy. I don’t know if I spelled it right, but you should be able to look it up as there were books written on this case. I wrote a paper on this very interesting case several years ago. One of the main skepticisms was that the hypnotist was really "awakening" multiple personalities within her mind and not aspects of past lives. But still, even if they were multiple personalities, where do the multiple personalities come from? What's the catalyst for the checmical imbalances in the mind that cause it? How could the memories have been so vivid on topics which she had no education (instructed or otherwise) in? It's generally said that ninety-nine times out of a hundred the most apparent answer to something is the most obvious... There’s just one thing that comes to mind that contradicts that theory, though. How exactly can one expire in the afterlife? This isn't something that’s addressed anywhere in religious teachings, is it? When you expire from your body, you technically exist from there on as your own soul, thus to "die" in the afterlife would mean the end of your existence. Part of what defines a soul is that it absolutely cannot be destroyed. This is why it is often believed that where your soul is taken to is where you remain for all eternity. In short, reincarnation could indeed exist. I just don't think one can be reborn through "dying" as a spirit, because that shouldn't be conceived as biblically possible. Like attracts like. Going by the theory another soul/spirit in the same after-life/heaven/hell/makai/nirvana/hades/dis/whatever you want to call it would be capable of "killing" the physical form of another. This would send the spirit back to a different world. Going by what you say though perhaps reincarnation doesn't really play that strong a role in it, and it's more like a parallel soul being created in a corresponding world rather than the SAME soul. The shared memories being brought by some kind of inter-spiritual "resonance." ??? I never said Berial's death in Makai would mean the end of Makai's existence. Read those statements in my last post again very carefully. Given what I stated above on how the soul is partially defined, that would technically make Berial's death in Makai the end of HIS existence, if Makai really was the biblical hell and not just some alternate dimension. Also, I don’t think the inhabitants of hell can be reincarnated in the human realm upon death. You're right I did misread that. I think my above post addresses this though. I agree with most of what you're saying now. That would currently make Morrigan The Devil then, because she’s the heir to the Aensland throne. Makes sense to me. Aren’t the Anti-Christ and The Devil one in the same? Nope. The Anti-Christ is referred to as "The Beast." A human with inhuman powers who's purpose is the gradually manipulate events on (in our case) Earth to help better prepare things for The Devil's arrival. I’m not gonna argue here. Berial’s been long dead before the 1600’s, so I guess a backstory could be made where he gets reincarnated as Amakusa....... IF he is Satan, the Anti-Christ, The Devil, Lucifer, and any other name he’s been known as throughout history. It's possible depending on what you want to view Amakusa as. I'll look into it further (preferably having the SNK storyline take precedence over the historical facts and legend in this case). What? I thought we were talking about Makai? How did Lucifer get there? Oh yeah, we're mixing worlds. http://www.southtown.i-p.com/vison.gif Just because the name Makai-Mura literally means devil world, doesn't make it the biblical hell. We could call this world Makai-Mura and it wouldn't make it the biblical hell. Names shouldn't be used as proof. You're right, just because Mortal Kombat is called Mortal Kombat doesn't actually mean the game contains people dying while fighting each other. Being visible is being physical? Yes. A hologram is visible, but it's not physical (unless you want go through all those things about light waves being both waves and particles). And being ethereal and gaseous are not the same thing. Ether is a substance that is suppose to be finer than anything else and can pass through any substance. Being finer than anything else doesn't make it not physical. And particles are particles. I can't agree that just because the human body and senses are incapable of coming into what our narrow definition of direct contact is with certain things that those things must not be physical. I'll try to see what I can scrounge up. "GO FOR BROKE!" Demon's Crest and the earlier Capcom Generations collections may be difficult to find. It's ironic that Demon's Crest was produced in such low qualities since it is IMO the best of the Makai related games. One of those rare titles where the visual depth and animations are able to replace the lack of outright text explanations of what's going on. Granted some of it looks dated by today's standards but the overall design is a work of art. It's the reincarnation theory. I see a lot of that in both anime and videogames. I wouldn't say it's rumored, since it's a belief. Actually the general reincarnation theory does not involve your soul being brought to another world and then being murdered in that world as the catalyst for your returning to this world as another lifeform. Except that the Makai being Berial is not opposed to Heaven and God. I don't think there is any reference to a relation between Makai and heaven mentioned in all the Darkstalkers series, with the exception of Hsien-ko and her sister's dead mother. Names for geographic features don't count, because I don't think they really connect Makai and heaven. Else we'd have angels and heavenly beings by now. Again though, the way I'm looking at this is that Hell as a place is evolving and has an internal structure, etc. just our world. As would heaven I assume. There are just as many religious beliefs that preach this "divine/diabolocal indifference" to our world as there are ones that preach the constant involvement of otherworldly beings in our daily lives. During Makai-Mura/GnG series Lucifer cared about taking over earth. King Arthur got some help from St. Michael and a few other angels and beat him down badly. It would make sense that after such a defeat the thought of conquering or enslaving the souls of the human world would not be a top priority. So the beings of hell turn their ambitions inward. We get the structured and civilized realm witnessed in the Gargoyle's Quest series, etc. Then, much more recently, there is new found interest in the gate that leads to this world. Research is done into it. Forgotten legends about an entirely different world of human beings becomes fact. You could almost think of the Darkstalkers game as a second invasion with a more cosmically benign motive on Morrigan's part. Ultima brings up a good point. Does Nakoruru showed any influence on nature that would give her immense power? Being immortal won't raise a person up a tier if they are still weak. Does Nakoruru show any influence that would make her seem weak? It doesn't look like much compared to other fighting game characters but taking all things into account, she was pretty damn powerful to begin with. Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:14:2002 06:29 PM: I always saw Makai as an alternate dimension rather than hell, because it's pretty certain that no dead people go there, or else we would have had a character by now who would have been recalling his life on earth before he died or anything. What you're saying makes sense, but looking at the viewpoint Grenade Falcon and myself are now considering on the subject I think most of what I've posted still fits effectively (respective to how vague some "explanations" given by Capcom and SNK are). And again, I'm pretty positive that the Makai in the Firebrand and Ghouls and Ghosts series is not the same Makai as the Darkstalkers series. All About Vampire Savior goes in-depth into Makai's political history for like thousands of years -and it's nothing like Firebrand and Ghouls and Ghosts. I understand your concern and I'd like to discuss this further but I cannot if you don't give me an example of where Makai's history conflicts with that of the GnG/Firebrand world. Furthermore, to Makai, they didn't even -know that earth EXISTED- for the longest time. It wasn't until Jedah stumbled across Earth by ACCIDENT that the Darkstalkers and residents of Makai found out about earth. The biblical hell, meanwhile, knows all about Earth and Satan is always tempting people of earth in order to make them fall and all that, while Berial in the Darkstalker's Makai was basically just another powerful lord of Makai. I think I covered this in my previous post. And if Makai is hell, what does that make it's little clone sister, Majiden, that Jedah created? www.gamefaqs.com. And also, names are very poor evidence, I think. If names were good evidence, then Vanilla Ice in Jojo's Bizarre Adventure would really be THE Vanilla Ice, and Kenny G THE Kenny G. Last I checked, Vanilla Ice in the real world generally wore PANTS and didn't have the ability to eat himself to make himself into a void that consumed everything it touched, and Kenny G with his Tenor Sax didn't have the ability to create an illusionary MC Escher Labyrinth, and Terrence T. Darby wasn't a video game addict who could capture your soul if you lost to him in a video game... The difference here though is that there are blatant differences between the source of the name and the similarly named character. The more I look into the Darkstalkers universe though the more and more similarities I see. Capcom naming Darkstalker characters and locations after biblical hell things is merely an allusion, just like Araki naming JJBA characters after music characters, and it doesn't make those characters the actual biblical hell versions. The fact that Makai (which again, is different from the Makai in Firebrand) in general differs so much from the biblical hell despite the names should make this obvious, I think. How does it differ so much though from what is commonly believed by many people to be how hell was set up (assuming as you are that I think hell has remained constant in it's societal structre since its inception)? Again going back to the description offered of it's topography it's practically word for word taken from parts of The Divine Comedy and other descriptions of hell. For it to remain so close when we're reading something that's translated loosely from Japanese that was taken loosely from western mythology I think is further solidification of this. I will glady continue these discussions via email, AIM, or ICQ so feel free to private message me if you want contact information. I truly do wish to cease discussion of them in this thread so that I may delve into the wallowing pit of continuity discrepincies far worse than any hell previously discussed: Savage Reign. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:14:2002 06:41 PM: It's basically the fact that no where in All About Vampire Savior, which starts at the beginning of Makai, is the Firebrand series mentioned. I'm pretty sure that the All About series would have covered something like that, since they're generally -very- thorough unless it's a fact so vague and old that even Capcom itself no longer -cares- about it, which I don't think an entire game series would be... In fact, this is the first time I've ever heard of anyone making the connection^^ EGM just had a huge interview with the makers of Maximo and they talked about the Ghouls n' Ghosts license thoroughly, and no where in there was there any indication whatsoever that Capcom even remotely considered a connection between it and the Darkstalkers series, and I've never seen any characters that are connected between the two or anything except the name of the location (dunno how much the location resembles the Darkstalker's Makai though because I don't know that much about Firebrand or Ghouls n' Ghosts, either). This whole thought that such a connection could exists just seems to really come out of no where to me... Oi vey... ah well. I don't know (or care, really) enough about the Darkstalkers storyline to comment much further and the Engrish of that All About Vampire Savior page makes my eyes hurt after staring at it for too long Whatever. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:14:2002 09:43 PM: What you're saying makes sense, but looking at the viewpoint Grenade Falcon and myself are now considering on the subject I think most of what I've posted still fits effectively (respective to how vague some "explanations" given by Capcom and SNK are). I understand your concern and I'd like to discuss this further but I cannot if you don't give me an example of where Makai's history conflicts with that of the GnG/Firebrand world. I’m not taking this viewpoint as fact, just coincidence. You did bring up some good points, but I’m sure Capcom would’ve mentioned them in All About Vampire Savior if they intended for the Makai in the GnG/Firebrand series to be linked to the Darkstalkers series, or that they meant for Makai to resemble the biblical hell and still maintain its fictitious society. There are a few things from Vampire Savior that disprove the notion that Makai is hell, most notably in the dialogue. Felicia’s boss dialogue with Liltih and Jedah’s boss dialogue with Demitri seem to hint at the coming “doomsday” of Makai, which in truth should not ever be considered a threat to a dimension that’s as constant as hell. Lilith tells Felicia that her vision of a bright happy future will not come into being because the world and everyone in it will perish, and Demitri scoffs at Jedah’s plan to provide relief for the souls of Makai as he boasts that he’ll rule over all. Makai’s imminent collapse is why Jedah created Majiden to save all the souls, after all. And here’s the dialogue from Pyron’s VS ending where he comments on the coming end of Makai: "So... it is a devil world." "The universe is space, having different laws and chronology." "A very interesting world...I must apologize..." "If its destruction were not to be, it should have been mine." "There is nothing to obtain from here." "Perhaps I will head for Andromeda next..." Now if Makai in fact was hell, then its destruction contradicts all religious beliefs that are known about hell. Hell exists for a reason, and to speak of it as if it were fading from existence would mean everlasting harmony for all the souls on Earth, which is impossible because it is strictly acknowledged that those with sin shall never enter the kingdom of heaven. Posted by Psycho Power J on 04:15:2002 02:30 AM: If you'll reread my post concerning Nakoruru's current nature ( ), you'll noticed that I don't say anything concerning Nakoruru being extremely powerful, I'm simply mentioning that she cannot be destroyed and is eternally aligned with what Morrigan would represent the opposite of on this planet, which last time I checked was good reasoning for a rivalry. Again though, her physical form can be just about anything and the destruction of a human avatar of her pre-SS2 ending form isn't going to mean all that much to her in the long run. So she's not top-tier, just indestructible. But I think she could only do so much since she can't stop the most powerful ones. Everything in nature is a part of mother nature/Gaia, that's why it can't be permanently destroyed. Since in both universes at this time Nakoruru is the only being taking human form and being a literal part of nature, from the standpoint of a human in the SNK/Capcom universe she would be Gaia. Of course there are possible exceptions like Jyazu if I start discussing the allegorical conflicts behind your favorte fighting game that starts with a K and ends with an A. Except when Orochi succeeds or some idiot decides to start a nuclear war that destroys everything. Still if Nakoruru is just a part, then she doesn't have control over all of nature. A nature spirit inhabiting a tree wouldn't have influence over fishes in the ocean, even though both are part of Gaia. Who's Jyazu though? Does Ultimy-Wultimy feel better noooow? Let's stop this right there. You proved your point, so let's keep this from escalating to a flame war. Like attracts like. Going by the theory another soul/spirit in the same after-life/heaven/hell/makai/nirvana/hades/dis/whatever you want to call it would be capable of "killing" the physical form of another. This would send the spirit back to a different world. Going by what you say though perhaps reincarnation doesn't really play that strong a role in it, and it's more like a parallel soul being created in a corresponding world rather than the SAME soul. The shared memories being brought by some kind of inter-spiritual "resonance." Didn't you say that Makai is the biblical hell? That would make that impossible. All souls are there to stay for eternal torment. http://www.southtown.i-p.com/vison.gif right, just because Mortal Kombat is called Mortal Kombat doesn't actually mean the game contains people dying while fighting each other. Just because they call a game Bloody Roar doesn't mean that there's blood when they roar. Just because a certain dessert is named Angel's Food Cake doesn't mean angels eat it, nor does Devil Food's Cake for devils. And just because something is named something doesn't make it so, no matter how blatant they may be. Being finer than anything else doesn't make it not physical. And particles are particles. I can't agree that just because the human body and senses are incapable of coming into what our narrow definition of direct contact is with certain things that those things must not be physical. Here we go; ethereal: lacking material substance. This includes anything physical. Actually the general reincarnation theory does not involve your soul being brought to another world and then being murdered in that world as the catalyst for your returning to this world as another lifeform. I should have clarified. It's one kind of reincarnation theory. Again though, the way I'm looking at this is that Hell as a place is evolving and has an internal structure, etc. just our world. As would heaven I assume. There are just as many religious beliefs that preach this "divine/diabolocal indifference" to our world as there are ones that preach the constant involvement of otherworldly beings in our daily lives. During Makai-Mura/GnG series Lucifer cared about taking over earth. King Arthur got some help from St. Michael and a few other angels and beat him down badly. It would make sense that after such a defeat the thought of conquering or enslaving the souls of the human world would not be a top priority. So the beings of hell turn their ambitions inward. We get the structured and civilized realm witnessed in the Gargoyle's Quest series, etc. Then, much more recently, there is new found interest in the gate that leads to this world. Research is done into it. Forgotten legends about an entirely different world of human beings becomes fact. You could almost think of the Darkstalkers game as a second invasion with a more cosmically benign motive on Morrigan's part. I think mixing worlds just makes thing more confusing. Let's just keep possible relations between world hypothetical to keep things understandable. Does Nakoruru show any influence that would make her seem weak? It doesn't look like much compared to other fighting game characters but taking all things into account, she was pretty damn powerful to begin with. Take what into account? Indestructibility doesn't make a powerful character. And if you're saying gameplaywise, I think Nakoruru is weak. www.gamefaqs.com. If you mean that Majiden is a container that Jedah created to hold souls to save them from the destruction of Makai, that seem obvious. But if Makai is the biblical hell, then creating Majiden would be pointless won't it? Because the biblical hell can't be destroyed by anyone other than God. How does it differ so much though from what is commonly believed by many people to be how hell was set up (assuming as you are that I think hell has remained constant in it's societal structre since its inception)? Again going back to the description offered of it's topography it's practically word for word taken from parts of The Divine Comedy and other descriptions of hell. For it to remain so close when we're reading something that's translated loosely from Japanese that was taken loosely from western mythology I think is further solidification of this. Can you state the descriptions that make the two seem so similar? Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:15:2002 05:46 AM: Grenade Falcon: I didn't mean to make it sound like you completely agreed with me. I said considering more in the context of your actually discussing this with me rather than making posts consisting of "Well I never played ____ but _____ can't possibly be _____." and "Rasa you're not right because I disagree with you." and for that I am truly appreciative. You did bring up some good points, but I’m sure Capcom would’ve mentioned them in All About Vampire Savior if they intended for the Makai in the GnG/Firebrand series to be linked to the Darkstalkers series, or that they meant for Makai to resemble the biblical hell and still maintain its fictitious society. I understand what you mean, however when I look at the massive amount of unexplained things that exist in videogame storylines (be they by SNK, Capcom, or any company) I don't see what's wrong with putting together a theory like mine. The basic jist of my opinion of Makai is that it is the biblical hell, but ignores the supposedly constant nature of hell and evolves as a world like ours. Again I'm just staying with this because it's the only way I can think of to connect more of Capcom's games into a single cohesive world to work with and at the moment I see no conflict with which to discount said combination. Think about it, after Armageddon does hell still "exist" if all souls are redeemed and removed from it and all fallen angels running it are destroyed? If you believe in the Harrowing of Hell then this is a distinct possibility. Also take into account Morrigan's behavior. Makai has been around for so long, she can't be the only demon to become indifferent to its existance can she? As per Arthurian legends and the such the mass indifference of the demons themselves could be what is causing the land to deteriorate. Arthur's (GnG not the actual legend) desire to gain glory over staying and protecting his own land is what caused him to be absent long enough for Lucifer to move his crew in. Or even Morrigan herself could be causing the gradual destruction of Makai due to the shift in power caused by her continued presence on our plane. Anyways this is getting WAY off from Capcom vs. SNK so if you want to talk about it further you can feel free to pm me/etc. So she's not top-tier, just indestructible. But I think she could only do so much since she can't stop the most powerful ones. Again, why can't she? Except when Orochi succeeds or some idiot decides to start a nuclear war that destroys everything. Orochi is already out of the picture for the time being. I don't see how someone using nuclear technology to harm life on this planet qualifies him/her as a spirit of nature taking human form to represent the furthing of natural life. I'm not allowed to discuss Jyazu because no one gives a shit about Kizuna Encounter. Let's stop this right there. You proved your point, so let's keep this from escalating to a flame war. Yes master. Didn't you say that Makai is the biblical hell? That would make that impossible. All souls are there to stay for eternal torment. This statement is false. """ """ Forgive me. Just because they call a game Bloody Roar doesn't mean that there's blood when they roar. Just because a certain dessert is named Angel's Food Cake doesn't mean angels eat it, nor does Devil Food's Cake for devils. And just because something is named something doesn't make it so, no matter how blatant they may be. Just because they call it the death penalty doesn't mean it penalizes a person with death. Just because they call it Ryuuko no Ken doesn't mean there's two opposing forces. Just because they call Simon's Quest doesn't mean Simon is going on a quest. We can go back and forth with this for eternity. My reason for the initial statement was to point out that the blatancy of the visual designs and descriptions is what IMO solidifies the metaphor as more than just an allusion. Here we go; ethereal: lacking material substance. This includes anything physical. That's actually one of four main definitions of ethereal. If you don't believe me you can verify it on www.dictionary.com or something. ;p Ethereal: 1) Characterized by lightness and insubstantiality; Intangible. 2) Highly refined; delicate. Airy. 3) a~ Of the celestial spheres; heavenly. b~ Not of this world; spiritual. 4) Chemistry. Of or relating to ether. As you can see, the contexts involving spirtuality/otherworldiness and a lack of physical presence are unrelated. If it were not so I would not have corrected you in the first place. AFAIK the definition used by Milton in Paradise Lost is to simply imply that something ethereal is something from heaven or hell (as it has been used in other writings). I think mixing worlds just makes thing more confusing. Let's just keep possible relations between world hypothetical to keep things understandable. This entire thread is hypothetical. Take what into account? Take into account that there are beings on earth besides the characters discussed in these threads. That every being we talk about here put together is maybe .0001% of the Capcom/SNK populations. That the line between powerful and weak is very blurry, etc. Indestructibility doesn't make a powerful character. Why not? Assuming said character's opponents are destructable then the indestructable character has already won and needs only to wait for the inevitable. This is what I was implying about Nakoruru earlier in the thread, that her human avatar could be destroyed but that it makes no difference because everyone else (on earth) is getting older and weaker. All she has to do is survive, which she can do. And if you're saying gameplaywise, I think Nakoruru is weak. Did you play Capcom vs. SNK 1? If you mean that Majiden is a container that Jedah created to hold souls to save them from the destruction of Makai, that seem obvious. But if Makai is the biblical hell, then creating Majiden would be pointless won't it? Because the biblical hell can't be destroyed by anyone other than God. But God will destroy hell. In this case Pyron is deciding not to bother with Makai or earth because he feels the Apocalypse is coming soon. By Pyron's time frame soon could be a few hundred years, whatever. Can you state the descriptions that make the two seem so similar? Should I even bother? I've already gone out of my way to do some external research to help enrich the content of this thread and you haven't even played half the games we're talking about. Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:15:2002 05:53 AM: Grenade Falcon: I didn't mean to make it sound like you completely agreed with me. I said considering more in the context of your actually discussing this with me rather than making posts consisting of "Well I never played ____ but _____ can't possibly be _____." and "Rasa you're not right because I disagree with you." and for that I am truly appreciative. You did bring up some good points, but I’m sure Capcom would’ve mentioned them in All About Vampire Savior if they intended for the Makai in the GnG/Firebrand series to be linked to the Darkstalkers series, or that they meant for Makai to resemble the biblical hell and still maintain its fictitious society. I understand what you mean, however when I look at the massive amount of unexplained things that exist in videogame storylines (be they by SNK, Capcom, or any company) I don't see what's wrong with putting together a theory like mine. The basic jist of my opinion of Makai is that it is the biblical hell, but ignores the supposedly constant nature of hell and evolves as a world like ours. Again I'm just staying with this because it's the only way I can think of to connect more of Capcom's games into a single cohesive world to work with and at the moment I see no conflict with which to discount said combination. Think about it, after Armageddon does hell still "exist" if all souls are redeemed and removed from it and all fallen angels running it are destroyed? If you believe in the Harrowing of Hell then this is a distinct possibility. Also take into account Morrigan's behavior. Makai has been around for so long, she can't be the only demon to become indifferent to its existance can she? As per Arthurian legends and the such the mass indifference of the demons themselves could be what is causing the land to deteriorate. Arthur's (GnG not the actual legend) desire to gain glory over staying and protecting his own land is what caused him to be absent long enough for Lucifer to move his crew in. Or even Morrigan herself could be causing the gradual destruction of Makai due to the shift in power caused by her continued presence on our plane. Anyways this is getting WAY off from Capcom vs. SNK so if you want to talk about it further you can feel free to pm me/etc. So she's not top-tier, just indestructible. But I think she could only do so much since she can't stop the most powerful ones. Again, why can't she? Except when Orochi succeeds or some idiot decides to start a nuclear war that destroys everything. Orochi is already out of the picture for the time being. I don't see how someone using nuclear technology to harm life on this planet qualifies him/her as a spirit of nature taking human form to represent the furthing of natural life. I'm not allowed to discuss Jyazu because no one gives a shit about Kizuna Encounter. Let's stop this right there. You proved your point, so let's keep this from escalating to a flame war. Yes master. Didn't you say that Makai is the biblical hell? That would make that impossible. All souls are there to stay for eternal torment. This statement is false. """ """ Forgive me. Just because they call a game Bloody Roar doesn't mean that there's blood when they roar. Just because a certain dessert is named Angel's Food Cake doesn't mean angels eat it, nor does Devil Food's Cake for devils. And just because something is named something doesn't make it so, no matter how blatant they may be. Just because they call it the death penalty doesn't mean it penalizes a person with death. Just because they call it Ryuuko no Ken doesn't mean there's two opposing forces. Just because they call Simon's Quest doesn't mean Simon is going on a quest. We can go back and forth with this for eternity. My reason for the initial statement was to point out that the blatancy of the visual designs and descriptions is what IMO solidifies the metaphor as more than just an allusion. Here we go; ethereal: lacking material substance. This includes anything physical. That's actually one of four main definitions of ethereal. If you don't believe me you can verify it on www.dictionary.com or something. ;p Ethereal: 1) Characterized by lightness and insubstantiality; Intangible. 2) Highly refined; delicate. Airy. 3) a~ Of the celestial spheres; heavenly. b~ Not of this world; spiritual. 4) Chemistry. Of or relating to ether. As you can see, the contexts involving spirtuality/otherworldiness and a lack of physical presence are unrelated. If it were not so I would not have corrected you in the first place. AFAIK the definition used by Milton in Paradise Lost is to simply imply that something ethereal is something from heaven or hell (as it has been used in other writings). I think mixing worlds just makes thing more confusing. Let's just keep possible relations between world hypothetical to keep things understandable. This entire thread is hypothetical. Take what into account? Take into account that there are beings on earth besides the characters discussed in these threads. That every being we talk about here put together is maybe .0001% of the Capcom/SNK populations. That the line between powerful and weak is very blurry, etc. Indestructibility doesn't make a powerful character. Why not? Assuming said character's opponents are destructable then the indestructable character has already won and needs only to wait for the inevitable. This is what I was implying about Nakoruru earlier in the thread, that her human avatar could be destroyed but that it makes no difference because everyone else (on earth) is getting older and weaker. All she has to do is survive, which she can do. And if you're saying gameplaywise, I think Nakoruru is weak. Did you play Capcom vs. SNK 1? If you mean that Majiden is a container that Jedah created to hold souls to save them from the destruction of Makai, that seem obvious. But if Makai is the biblical hell, then creating Majiden would be pointless won't it? Because the biblical hell can't be destroyed by anyone other than God. But God will destroy hell. In this case Pyron is deciding not to bother with Makai or earth because he feels the Apocalypse is coming soon. By Pyron's time frame soon could be a few hundred years, whatever. Can you state the descriptions that make the two seem so similar? Should I even bother? I've already gone out of my way to do some external research to help enrich the content of this thread and you haven't even played half the games we're talking about. Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:15:2002 06:03 AM: Grenade Falcon: I didn't mean to make it sound like you completely agreed with me. I said considering more in the context of your actually discussing this with me rather than making posts consisting of "Well I never played ____ but _____ can't possibly be _____." and "Rasa you're not right because I disagree with you." and for that I am truly appreciative. You did bring up some good points, but I’m sure Capcom would’ve mentioned them in All About Vampire Savior if they intended for the Makai in the GnG/Firebrand series to be linked to the Darkstalkers series, or that they meant for Makai to resemble the biblical hell and still maintain its fictitious society. I understand what you mean, however when I look at the massive amount of unexplained things that exist in videogame storylines (be they by SNK, Capcom, or any company) I don't see what's wrong with putting together a theory like mine. The basic jist of my opinion of Makai is that it is the biblical hell, but ignores the supposedly constant nature of hell and evolves as a world like ours. Again I'm just staying with this because it's the only way I can think of to connect more of Capcom's games into a single cohesive world to work with and at the moment I see no conflict with which to discount said combination. Think about it, after Armageddon does hell still "exist" if all souls are redeemed and removed from it and all fallen angels running it are destroyed? If you believe in the Harrowing of Hell then this is a distinct possibility. Also take into account Morrigan's behavior. Makai has been around for so long, she can't be the only demon to become indifferent to its existance can she? As per Arthurian legends and the such the mass indifference of the demons themselves could be what is causing the land to deteriorate. Arthur's (GnG not the actual legend) desire to gain glory over staying and protecting his own land is what caused him to be absent long enough for Lucifer to move his crew in. Or even Morrigan herself could be causing the gradual destruction of Makai due to the shift in power caused by her continued presence on our plane. Anyways this is getting WAY off from Capcom vs. SNK so if you want to talk about it further you can feel free to pm me/etc. So she's not top-tier, just indestructible. But I think she could only do so much since she can't stop the most powerful ones. Again, why can't she? Except when Orochi succeeds or some idiot decides to start a nuclear war that destroys everything. Orochi is already out of the picture for the time being. I don't see how someone using nuclear technology to harm life on this planet qualifies him/her as a spirit of nature taking human form to represent the furthing of natural life. I'm not allowed to discuss Jyazu because no one gives a shit about Kizuna Encounter. Let's stop this right there. You proved your point, so let's keep this from escalating to a flame war. Yes master. Didn't you say that Makai is the biblical hell? That would make that impossible. All souls are there to stay for eternal torment. This statement is false. """ """ Forgive me. Just because they call a game Bloody Roar doesn't mean that there's blood when they roar. Just because a certain dessert is named Angel's Food Cake doesn't mean angels eat it, nor does Devil Food's Cake for devils. And just because something is named something doesn't make it so, no matter how blatant they may be. Just because they call it the death penalty doesn't mean it penalizes a person with death. Just because they call it Ryuuko no Ken doesn't mean there's two opposing forces. Just because they call Simon's Quest doesn't mean Simon is going on a quest. We can go back and forth with this for eternity. My reason for the initial statement was to point out that the blatancy of the visual designs and descriptions is what IMO solidifies the metaphor as more than just an allusion. Here we go; ethereal: lacking material substance. This includes anything physical. That's actually one of four main definitions of ethereal. If you don't believe me you can verify it on www.dictionary.com or something. ;p Ethereal: 1) Characterized by lightness and insubstantiality; Intangible. 2) Highly refined; delicate. Airy. 3) a~ Of the celestial spheres; heavenly. b~ Not of this world; spiritual. 4) Chemistry. Of or relating to ether. As you can see, the contexts involving spirtuality/otherworldiness and a lack of physical presence are unrelated. If it were not so I would not have corrected you in the first place. AFAIK the definition used by Milton in Paradise Lost is to simply imply that something ethereal is something from heaven or hell (as it has been used in other writings). I think mixing worlds just makes thing more confusing. Let's just keep possible relations between world hypothetical to keep things understandable. This entire thread is hypothetical. Take what into account? Take into account that there are beings on earth besides the characters discussed in these threads. That every being we talk about here put together is maybe .0001% of the Capcom/SNK populations. That the line between powerful and weak is very blurry, etc. Indestructibility doesn't make a powerful character. Why not? Assuming said character's opponents are destructable then the indestructable character has already won and needs only to wait for the inevitable. This is what I was implying about Nakoruru earlier in the thread, that her human avatar could be destroyed but that it makes no difference because everyone else (on earth) is getting older and weaker. All she has to do is survive, which she can do. And if you're saying gameplaywise, I think Nakoruru is weak. Did you play Capcom vs. SNK 1? If you mean that Majiden is a container that Jedah created to hold souls to save them from the destruction of Makai, that seem obvious. But if Makai is the biblical hell, then creating Majiden would be pointless won't it? Because the biblical hell can't be destroyed by anyone other than God. But God will destroy hell. In this case Pyron is deciding not to bother with Makai or earth because he feels the Apocalypse is coming soon. By Pyron's time frame soon could be a few hundred years, whatever. Can you state the descriptions that make the two seem so similar? Should I even bother? I've already gone out of my way to do some external research to help enrich the content of this thread and you haven't even played half the games we're talking about. Posted by Ultima on 04:15:2002 06:54 AM: From Neo Rasa: [Nakoruru ain't that tough] > If you'll reread my post concerning Nakoruru's current nature ( ), you'll noticed that I don't say anything concerning Nakoruru being extremely powerful, I'm simply mentioning that she cannot be destroyed and is eternally aligned with what Morrigan would represent the opposite of on this planet, which last time I checked was good reasoning for a rivalry. *shrug* I think they were paired together more because they each company's most popular female character who isn't in SF of KoF (or in the case of Nakky, the most popular for SNK, period; I'm not sure if this applies to Morrigan). I think if Felicia was Capcom's most popular female, she would have been paired off against Nakky in CvS1/2, even though she's not any kind of demoic entity. > Again though, her physical form can be just about anything and the destruction of a human avatar of her pre-SS2 ending form isn't going to mean all that much to her in the long run. Her physical form seems to have some limitations though - If she can assume any form, why hasn't she assumed a more powerful form and/or gained more powerful techniques (representative of her earth spirit nature) post-SS2? Why was she reduced to a little sprite in New Chapter of Blade again? I forget the reason, but I don't recall it being any kind of catastrophic event that would cause Gaia herself to be rendered so impotent. It's not like the entire planet was dying at the time, was it? In terms of match-up, I think Morrigan vs. Nakky is terribly one-sided. Even if Nakky kept coming back a la South Park's Kenny, to Morigan it would be the equivalent of squashing a mosquito every time it flew close to her. Yeah, she could potentially outlive Morrigan, but that doesn't mean a thing for any actual head to head confrontation. > > Also, I though Takky-Nakky was a spirit of nature, not the spirit of nature? Where does it say that she's the equivalent to mother nature/Gaia? > Everything in nature is a part of mother nature/Gaia, that's why it can't be permanently destroyed. Since in both universes at this time Nakoruru is the only being taking human form and being a literal part of nature, from the standpoint of a human in the SNK/Capcom universe she would be Gaia. Huh? Being a part of Gaia and representing Gaia doesn't necessarily mean she IS Gaia. At least not in its entirity. > Zantetsu Kisaragi is Eiji Kisaragi's great great great...you get the idea, it's specified in his LB2 ending. Right. I remember reading that somewhere; didn't actually get around to finishing the game with Zantetsu, since it bored me to tears in 30 minutes of playing it. I just can't get into that game for some reason... > > To me it's like saying that Soul Blade/Calibur and Tekken exist in the same universe. > Soul Blade/Calibur and Tekken are in the same universe. Actually, I completely forgot about Yoshimitsu being in both games. I can't believe I forgot that. Okay, scratch that example. How about Weapon Lord and Tekken being in the same universe then? > Besides if you want to look into it a little more, look at the era when it's said a female Orochi devotee attempted to ressurrect it/merge with it in order to destroy the world. Huh? Where does it say this? "Female Orochi devotee"? Mizuki is an Orochi devotee? Ankokkushin Ambrosia (sp?) is Orochi now? [snip] Skull imgery is just for effect methinks. I wouldn't make an association based on suck a weak link. > [Savage Reign/Kizuna Encounter] > 1) Nobody giving a shit about said games does not invalidate their existance. > 2) If you reread this thread you'll notice that (aside from this post obviously) I only mention Savage Reign/Kizuna Encounter at two points, [snip] A) This is twice more than anybody else. B) You've mentioned these characters in other SNK discussions, at times when I thought their additions to be completely unnecessary. It's like a (very) toned down version of Liokaiser mentioning World Heroes when nobody cares. It's pointless. > You'll note that due to general lack of interest, I, contrary to "keep on mentioning" them actually specify that I will be doing the opposite. However, since you've mentioned them in a thread contributing nothing else to the topics at hand other than "Hi. I disagree with you. Bye." Don't be an ass. I quite clearly go into further detail than "I disagree with you. Bye". Besides, I would be more involved, but my connection speed (not to mention the time that I can spend online; we still pay by the hour if we go beyond a cerain number of hours a month) has been so drastically reduced that it takes forever to do anything. > I'll stop discussing all previously covered topics immediately and devote my next post(s) to a write up and explanation of the events of Savage Reign and Kizuna Encounter just for you. Does Ultimy-Wultimy feel better noooow? You'd be wasting your time and mine (definitely mine), so don't bother. Also, don't piss me off Rasa. I have no beef with you. Don't start now. Also, why are you trying to link the devil worlds of GnG/DC and Dark Stalkers again? Why not just stick to the DS world, which is is actually relevant to Morrigan, instead of trying to link it to other games via pure speculation, which is completely unnecessary, not to mention a lot less complicated (WHEW!). To Grenade Falcon: Actually, in terms of actual gameplay, Nakoruru has been overpowered more times than not. She's definitely top-tier/over-powered in SS3, SS4 (slash in both cases), and CvS1, I'd say she's stupidly powerful in SS1 as well, though that may just be me. She's pretty good in CvS2. I don't know about MotM or the SS64 games (and of course she's relatively weak in SS2). It's only in the actual game(s) that Nakoruru is actually a match for Morrigan. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:15:2002 07:48 AM: I'm starting to find it very silly how everyone is relying on a LACK of evidence to prove their supporting points, here. For example, Neo Rasa states that we should assume Gn'G and Firebrand occur in the same universe as Darkstalkers because there is no evidence to prove that it doesn't, then everyone else is stating that we should not assume they occur in the same universe because there is no evidence to prove that it does. ...oi vey. I still side with the side that thinks that we should NOT assume that Firebrand and Gn'G exist in the same universe as Darkstalkers. I think it's just wrong to stress a point so much in order to support an argument when that point itself has no evidence for or against it either way. Really, if you want everyone else to accept your argument as truth, I always thought the burden of proof was on you to come up with the evidence for that truth, not on everyone else to prove that it doesn't. There isn't even any circumstantial evidence whatsoever that Gn'G and Firebrand's Makai is the same as Darkstalker's. Until evidence gets brought up to show otherwise, I see no reason why we should accept an argument that has no evidence supporting it besides the lack of evidence against it (which isn't even really evidence ). That's just silly. That's like me saying that we should assume that Cyberbots and Street Fighter and Strider exist within the same universe simply because there's no evidence to prove otherwise. ...no wait, better. That Street Fighter and Power Stone exist within the same universe just because there's no evidence to prove otherwise I'm not sure if Capcom likes to connect their licenses series that much. I'm starting to HIGHLY suspect that Capcom doesn't even want Rival Schools to take place within the same universe as Street Fighter, for crying out loud (there's lots of evidence of them backpedaling away from and wanting players to forget that Sakura was in Rival Schools 1). If Capcom doesn't even want Rival Schools to be associated with Street Fighter, why would they want Gn'G and Firebrand to be associated with Darkstalkers, where there's even less connection? I guess Capcom differs from SNK, that way. SNK likes connecting all their games together (Last Blade and SS connecting to KOF, AOF, and Fatal Fury, for example), but Capcom only connects a few, these days. All of the other series connected to Street Fighter besides the 'apparently not meant to be in the same universe as Street Fighter' Rival Schools (All... two of them. Slammasters and Final Fight) are DEAD in terms of new games, too Oh yea, on a random note since it was mentioned, Doomsday for the Darkstalkers is supposedly not very far off. It's definately not 100 years away, at least It's going to occur when Anita grows up and 'awakens' (which is also why one of Donovan's endings shows Anita grown up). Jedah remarks that he can save the Vampire world, but only if he destroys the ruler of humanity before 'she' awakens, and that's a reference to Anita (Saiki stated this, and it's pretty obvious too since Donovan tells Anita that she's destined to destroy all the Dark Ones and he'll defend her until then) Darkstalkers is... in desperate need of a sequel From here on, one can make fun conspiracy theories about the doomsday Bison mentioned, the one Gill mentioned, and the one Jedah mentioned all being one and the same (The Rose = Anita rumours and Bison saying that Rose would be the one victorious on the day of doom throws even more convulution into there), but now I'm REALLY going off on a tangent Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:15:2002 09:12 AM: I have to say this now that I've just read Neo Rasa, Ultima and PPJ's posts: People, please try to keep sarcasm to a minimum here. I don't want to see a flame war erupt and ruin this thread, even if someone has a dislike to Kizuna Encounter or disagrees with Neo Rasa's speculation on the GnG/Firebrand Makai connecting to DS's Makai. Okay? I understand what you mean, however when I look at the massive amount of unexplained things that exist in videogame storylines (be they by SNK, Capcom, or any company) I don't see what's wrong with putting together a theory like mine. The basic jist of my opinion of Makai is that it is the biblical hell, but ignores the supposedly constant nature of hell and evolves as a world like ours. Again I'm just staying with this because it's the only way I can think of to connect more of Capcom's games into a single cohesive world to work with and at the moment I see no conflict with which to discount said combination. Think about it, after Armageddon does hell still "exist" if all souls are redeemed and removed from it and all fallen angels running it are destroyed? If you believe in the Harrowing of Hell then this is a distinct possibility. Also take into account Morrigan's behavior. Makai has been around for so long, she can't be the only demon to become indifferent to its existance can she? As per Arthurian legends and the such the mass indifference of the demons themselves could be what is causing the land to deteriorate. Arthur's (GnG not the actual legend) desire to gain glory over staying and protecting his own land is what caused him to be absent long enough for Lucifer to move his crew in. Or even Morrigan herself could be causing the gradual destruction of Makai due to the shift in power caused by her continued presence on our plane. Anyways this is getting WAY off from Capcom vs. SNK so if you want to talk about it further you can feel free to pm me/etc. This will be my last say on the matter. I agree that it doesn’t hurt to try and fill in holes of a game’s storyline, but for me, it’s still conjecture unless officially stated otherwise. You’re opinion of Makai makes sense, assuming that its destruction could represent the possible result of Armageddon. However, I personally think Armageddon is pointless and that it will never happen. Is it conceived that we as spirits exist only as pawns in a battle between good and evil? Perhaps, but as we speak, countless people are being tormented in their damnation while countless others are at peace in the kingdom of heaven. Both sides have had enough qualifying soldiers for so long, yet why would they continue the wait? If the opposing forces must destroy each other, why have neither of them done so by now? And besides, all things good and evil exist through God. Hell was originally a place created by God where Lucifer could be banished to for his crimes. If God could create one dimension, then surely enough he has the power to undo it. He doesn’t need our help to annihilate all that is evil when he can just do it in the blink of an eye. God’s superiority over every aspect of reality should mean the end of hell, and yet for some reason, it still exists. He could effortlessly destroy Lucifer and end his influence on the inhabitants of Earth, but apparently, he sees no reason to. Is our existence a test of faith in him? I think it most likely is, because he created humanity to fit in his own image, and those who oppose that without repenting will eventually suffer for it. By following his word and avoiding the temptation to sin, we maintain a good relationship with him, as well as our faith. Without faith, how would God know that we accept him? That is why I think hell will always exist and that Armageddon will never take place. Therefore, Makai resembling hell as deteriorating would seem unrealistic in my view. I do believe Morrigan could be a big contributing factor to Makai’s destruction, but not necessarily because of her indifference (or any demon’s) to its existence. As heir to the throne of Aensland, she is obligated to crush all opposing forces that try to gain control of Makai, but that is not of her concern. Maybe she is uninterested because she feels they are too weak to be a challenge? Maybe, but then why would she seem more interested in a plane inhabited by humans that are much weaker? It may not be so much as worthy opponents that she’s looking for, but the fulfillment of exploring a world that’s relatively new and much more exciting to her. Whatever the reason, her continuing travels to the human realm could certainly leave Makai in shambles. Anyway, Tiamat's right that there's no point in arguing on this. Since in everyone's opinion, there's no evidence to prove or disprove otherwise, we should drop the subject here. To Grenade Falcon: Actually, in terms of actual gameplay, Nakoruru has been overpowered more times than not. She's definitely top-tier/over-powered in SS3, SS4 (slash in both cases), and CvS1, I'd say she's stupidly powerful in SS1 as well, though that may just be me. She's pretty good in CvS2. I don't know about MotM or the SS64 games (and of course she's relatively weak in SS2). It's only in the actual game(s) that Nakoruru is actually a match for Morrigan. I didn't base the tiers on the characters' gameplay stats. Look at the list again and read through my explanations behind them. Posted by Psycho Power J on 04:15:2002 11:43 AM: Again, why can't she? If you sealed her up in a 3 ft. thick metal container, then she's not going to be able to do much without great power, now can she? Didn't you say that Makai is the biblical hell? That would make that impossible. All souls are there to stay for eternal torment. This statement is false. ...Did they change the bible? I'm pretty sure your stay in hell is permanent. Just because they call it the death penalty doesn't mean it penalizes a person with death. Just because they call it Ryuuko no Ken doesn't mean there's two opposing forces. Just because they call Simon's Quest doesn't mean Simon is going on a quest. We can go back and forth with this for eternity. My reason for the initial statement was to point out that the blatancy of the visual designs and descriptions is what IMO solidifies the metaphor as more than just an allusion. Point taken. I just think that Makai isn't hell if the inhabitants themselves can get killed. That's actually one of four main definitions of ethereal. If you don't believe me you can verify it on www.dictionary.com or something. ;p Ethereal: 1) Characterized by lightness and insubstantiality; Intangible. 2) Highly refined; delicate. Airy. 3) a~ Of the celestial spheres; heavenly. b~ Not of this world; spiritual. 4) Chemistry. Of or relating to ether. As you can see, the contexts involving spirtuality/otherworldiness and a lack of physical presence are unrelated. If it were not so I would not have corrected you in the first place. AFAIK the definition used by Milton in Paradise Lost is to simply imply that something ethereal is something from heaven or hell (as it has been used in other writings). So basically, we're back in square one, arguing what otherworldly beings are made of. But if spirits have a body, then why is there so many stories of how ghosts need a body to do anything? This entire thread is hypothetical. From the way we're going, it seems otherwise. Take into account that there are beings on earth besides the characters discussed in these threads. That every being we talk about here put together is maybe .0001% of the Capcom/SNK populations. That the line between powerful and weak is very blurry, etc. I understand now. Why not? Assuming said character's opponents are destructable then the indestructable character has already won and needs only to wait for the inevitable. This is what I was implying about Nakoruru earlier in the thread, that her human avatar could be destroyed but that it makes no difference because everyone else (on earth) is getting older and weaker. All she has to do is survive, which she can do. But with a guy like Akuma, the inevitable may never come. He's getting stronger and stronger, and eventually things like aging wouldn't have much effect on him, like with Oro, who's been around for over a century. Did you play Capcom vs. SNK 1? Actually, no. I did say I've just recently been interested in fighting games, didn't I? But God will destroy hell. In this case Pyron is deciding not to bother with Makai or earth because he feels the Apocalypse is coming soon. By Pyron's time frame soon could be a few hundred years, whatever. Okay, I don't want to argue whether or not God will destroy hell. Should I even bother? I've already gone out of my way to do some external research to help enrich the content of this thread and you haven't even played half the games we're talking about. I guess I'll look for the games then. Actually, in terms of actual gameplay, Nakoruru has been overpowered more times than not. She's definitely top-tier/over-powered in SS3, SS4 (slash in both cases), and CvS1, I'd say she's stupidly powerful in SS1 as well, though that may just be me. She's pretty good in CvS2. I don't know about MotM or the SS64 games (and of course she's relatively weak in SS2). It's only in the actual game(s) that Nakoruru is actually a match for Morrigan. Really? There is just no competition here, is there? I've never seen a good Nakoruru player before. She's not one of the characters I use either. Darkstalkers is... in desperate need of a sequel Let's pray for Vampire Soldier. Posted by sano on 04:15:2002 05:44 PM: (And now for the second part of the article that I started typing in my last post) Ryu vs.Terry The Ultimate Match (continued) DAVID'S DECISION Their fighting styles are very unique in their own ways. Ryu uses a very disciplined martial art, well-constructed and thought out in every detail. Terry has several different arts and the makeshift fighting styles of different street gangs and the like. Both of these have their stregnths and weaknesses. Ryu would use his techniques to be able to outwit an opponent. A defensive fighter, he is very fast and agile. He can pull off a leg sweep and be home in time for The Simpsons before you even hit the ground. Terry, on the other hand, could probably be classified as stronger. Also due to his immense size (especially over Ryu) he has an extremely long range when it comes to kicks and punches. Ryu wins most fights with the Shoryuken. In this technique, his height becomes advantageous, as he comes in low up to an opponent and finishes him off once and for all. Putting Terry vs. Ryu would be like taking a Case and a Caterpillar and using them to play chicken, What you'd get is a loud clank, a lot of energy being canceled out by the opposing force, and very little damage (if any). Terry has a wide variety of techniques and a long range at close combat, but Ryu, being defensive would probably be able to overcome his techniques. Terry, provided that he's not drunk and can remember them all, knows enough techniques that he would be able to cancel out any of Ryu's techniques, leaving the two at a standoff. Even in this situation, I still beleive that Ryu has the upperhand as he would hold the greater will to win; Terry does not hold the self confidence he needs to win such a balanced match. Of course, I think that Happosai (of Ranma 1/2 fame) could kick both of their butts in an instant. - David Mills (Next tin the article, a Referee speaks and says that the fight was close and both writers are in the hospital since they stood to close to watching the fight. Anyway, that's about all that's relevant to this topic - sano.) Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:15:2002 07:33 PM: *shrug* I think they were paired together more because they each company's most popular female character who isn't in SF of KoF (or in the case of Nakky, the most popular for SNK, period; I'm not sure if this applies to Morrigan). I think if Felicia was Capcom's most popular female, she would have been paired off against Nakky in CvS1/2, even though she's not any kind of demoic entity. This is probably correct, however they still justify the decision in MotM by bringing up how they are rivals mainly because Nakoruru despises Morrigan's presence here. Her physical form seems to have some limitations though - If she can assume any form, why hasn't she assumed a more powerful form and/or gained more powerful techniques (representative of her earth spirit nature) post-SS2? Why was she reduced to a little sprite in New Chapter of Blade again? I forget the reason, but I don't recall it being any kind of catastrophic event that would cause Gaia herself to be rendered so impotent. It's not like the entire planet was dying at the time, was it? Just as you took into account the out-of-game reasons for her and Morrigan being paired against each other, take into account that if a character is extremely popular, it's ingame image generally won't change to a completely unrecognizable form. It's the same reason the AoF characters weren't aged properly for the King of Fighters series and how they decided to use "comic book" aging for them instead. In terms of match-up, I think Morrigan vs. Nakky is terribly one-sided. Even if Nakky kept coming back a la South Park's Kenny, to Morigan it would be the equivalent of squashing a mosquito every time it flew close to her. Yeah, she could potentially outlive Morrigan, but that doesn't mean a thing for any actual head to head confrontation. No, it doesn't. Huh? Being a part of Gaia and representing Gaia doesn't necessarily mean she IS Gaia. At least not in its entirity. What is Gaia then? Actually, I completely forgot about Yoshimitsu being in both games. I can't believe I forgot that. Okay, scratch that example. How about Weapon Lord and Tekken being in the same universe then? While Weaponlord shares several gameplay similarites to Soul Edge/Calibur I don't see any way to link it to Soul Calibur/Edge/Tekken at this time. If I find my SNES manual for it though I'll be sure to post my findings here. Huh? Where does it say this? "Female Orochi devotee"? Mizuki is an Orochi devotee? Ankokkushin Ambrosia (sp?) is Orochi now? I just said it's something worth thinking about. It is stated in several places though that Orochi briefly took on a female host a few hundred years ago (inbetween KoF'97 and the original fiasco) that was sealed away by Chizuru's ancestors before it could really get started. Skull imgery is just for effect methinks. I wouldn't make an association based on suck a weak link. I specified as much in my own post. A) This is twice more than anybody else. B) You've mentioned these characters in other SNK discussions, at times when I thought their additions to be completely unnecessary. It's like a (very) toned down version of Liokaiser mentioning World Heroes when nobody cares. It's pointless. And you are the final say on what should and should not be mentioned in SNK discussions? Ninety-nine times out a hundred I simply mention them in lists of bosses/game releases/dates/etc. for completists' sake because they're fighting games made by SNK on Neo Geo hardware. I know that in general most people don't care about them because people don't talk about them. Despite this though you never see me trying to ram Kizuna/SR information down people's throats or telling them what games they should or should not care about. I'd appreciate it if you could extend me the same courtesy. Don't be an ass. Sorry to steal the spotlight. I quite clearly go into further detail than "I disagree with you. Bye". """""I'm no expert on Makai, but I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that the devil world of the Vampire/Dark Stalker series is the same as in Capcom's other games. The GnG games and the Gargoyle's Crest games are related, obviously, but I won't assume there's any connection between them and DS until it's explicitly stated.""""" """""And finally Rasa, why do you keep mentioning Savage Reign and Kizuna Encounter? Shit man, nobody gives a rat's ass about those games. Just like nobody gives a shit about Star Gladiator/Plasma Sword and Tech Romancer.""""" Telling me you're not an expert on what we're discussing and then saying you disagree with A THEORY THAT I CAME UP WITH AND NOT SOMETHING I'M TRYING TO PASS OFF AS CANON OUTSIDE OF THIS THREAD because there's nothing to prove it one way or the other does not = detail. Besides, I would be more involved, but my connection speed (not to mention the time that I can spend online; we still pay by the hour if we go beyond a cerain number of hours a month) has been so drastically reduced that it takes forever to do anything. If you desire involvement so badly you You'd be wasting your time and mine (definitely mine), so don't bother. Yes, your time is oh so important to me. Look, if you really don't like the direction a discussion is turning, and it is such a priority that all matters are discussed on your own terms you can do something positive for a change and START YOUR OWN THREAD like Grenade Falcon did. Also, don't piss me off Rasa. I have no beef with you. Don't start now. Also, why are you trying to link the devil worlds of GnG/DC and Dark Stalkers again? Why not just stick to the DS world, which is is actually relevant to Morrigan, instead of trying to link it to other games via pure speculation, which is completely unnecessary, not to mention a lot less complicated (WHEW!). We covered this multiple times. Anyways, since it appears now that no one wants to talk about Makai anymore what shall we discuss? Posted by Psycho Power J on 04:15:2002 08:09 PM: What is Gaia then? It's nature in it's entirety. Anyways, since it appears now that no one wants to talk about Makai anymore what shall we discuss? It's not we don't want to talk about Makai anymore, it's just not something worth arguing over it's every little detail. Let's leave it as it is, shall we? You can also forget my previous post too. Okay, something else to talk about. Now that I think about it, how about Strider vs. Hanzo? Seeing these two in a fight would be interesting. I think Strider would have the advantage since he fought against a variety of enemies, and would have a lot of tactics to use against Hanzo. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:15:2002 11:00 PM: Now that I think about it, how about Strider vs. Hanzo? Seeing these two in a fight would be interesting. I think Strider would have the advantage since he fought against a variety of enemies, and would have a lot of tactics to use against Hanzo. I don't think its wise to include non-fighting game characters in this thread because it just wouldn't be fair for those that exist solely for this genre, so let's keep them out of this. All right, now just let me remind you all that you can still talk about match-ups that have already been mentioned and spoken upon. With that said, who wants to give more insight on Sagat and Krauser? It looks as if this matchup hasn't been addressed that much at all. Other specific matchups I think need more opinions on include: Gen and Lee(AOF) Cammy and Blue Mary Demitri and Shinnosuke Kagami Demitri and Setsuna Hsien-Ko and Basra Lord Rapter and Mukuro Jon Talbain and Galford/Hanzo The Dolls and Kula, Diana, Foxy and Candy (Tiamat, I'm still not sure if this includes all 12 of The Dolls. Is it just any four of them?) Now for new match-ups: Q and K'9999 {} Necro and K'9999 {} Twelve and K'9999 {} Urien and Krizalid Gen and Tung Fu Rue I'll comment on these when I have the time. Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:15:2002 11:46 PM: I don't think its wise to include non-fighting game characters in this thread because it just wouldn't be fair for those that exist solely for this genre, so let's keep them out of this. Isn't Hanzo in Samurai Shodown RPG? Besides I don't think they're pretty evenly matched if you were to pit the 2D SS Hanzo against the VS. Hiryu incarnation. With that said, who wants to give more insight on Sagat and Krauser? It looks as if this matchup hasn't been addressed that much at all. Sagat vs. Wolfgang Krauser is still one of my favorite matchups between the two companies of all time. In general I think Krauser is more powerful overall but that either one could win. I feel Krauser is more powerful because his style seems more versatile than Sagats, employing Sagat-like high/low projectiles and kick special move with a variety of throws and a counter. Despite the Kaiser Wave (as one of Krauser's DMs/SDMs, not Rugal's wimpy version) being one of the most powerful projectile attacks around I think for Sagat to win he would have to stay at long range and risk falling prey to it so that Krauser wouldn't be able to continously take advantage of his close-up techniques. This isn't to say that Sagat is weak up close, but I think in close quarters Krauser has a bigger advantage. Attitude wise they're somewhat similar in that they're not bad guys overall but get a bad reputation due to their boss status, their general ruthlessness while fightng, and their desire to battle the main character of their respective games. Again though, Krauser is someone who isn't going to let revenge get to him as it pertains to winning/losing fighting tournaments. Since Krauser's a noble, good guy overall he and Sagat may actually get along well. Gen vs. Lee Pai Long: Not enough information IMO is known about Lee. I'm going to replay AoF2 with him soon to see if anything new can be learned. Basically though: Assassin Doctor Famous Chinese Kenpo master Fights with claws Speed based style with slight similarites to Chun Li Wears a monkey spirit mask It's not much to work with of course, but it's better than nothing. I'll post up on the other match ups a little later. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:16:2002 12:03 AM: Isn't Hanzo in Samurai Shodown RPG? Besides I don't think they're pretty evenly matched if you were to pit the 2D SS Hanzo against the VS. Hiryu incarnation. I didn't know there was a Samurai Shodown RPG. What's it like and what console is it on? Again though, Krauser is someone who isn't going to let revenge get to him as it pertains to winning/losing fighting tournaments. Don't forget that Sagat's overcome his desire for revenge after SFA3. If they were to fight before that game takes place, then assuredly Krauser would win. Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:16:2002 12:28 AM: Grenade: I know that Sagat gets over his "loss" to Ryu and what not, I just mean that as a character-flaws in general go Krauser seems to not be as affected. The Samurai Shodown RPG is quite good and is on the Neo-CD, PSX, and Saturn. I think Gamefaqs has a pretty good guide for it. It was cool because despite there being only one very short ending you chose from one of six characters to play as at the beginning of the game, the game itself starting and proceeding very differently depending on who you choose. During the battles you could choose to have them be menu based or have you manually put in special moves for the characters. Field graphics are comparable to Sega CD era RPGs such as Lunar or Vay but the in-battle graphics are taken straight from the games with some animation cuts. Either Working Designs or Sega was going to publish it in the US but retardedly they chose not to at the last second. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:16:2002 01:59 AM: Sagat's a developing character Start a character off with a bunch of character flaws then have him develop out of them as the storyline progresses due to events and such. A good story, I think I like Krauser a lot, too, even though he doesn't get to do too much, storyline-wise. Very nice personality shown in the KOF96 boss team ending (Bwahahaha, Mr. Big whining while Krauser took everything in stride was cool). Oi... the SS RPG... sigh. I heard that was coming over and was so looking forward to it. I wanted to see more Charlotte. As for the Dolls, if there were only four of them, then Kula, Foxy, Diana, and Candy would probably work them easily. Unless one of those four was Cammy, and even then, would probably have to give the match to Kula and co Kula, Foxy, Diana, and Candy are probably rather high on the power scale, I imagine. Foxy and Diana seem to have lots of experience and are pretty high up members in NESTs, I always thought, while Candy is probably designed well for combat and Kula goes without saying (she's supposed to be the anti-good guy and we all know that the main character is usually supposed to be rather powerful in storylines, I think). All twelve of the Dolls might be overkill, though Posted by Psycho Power J on 04:16:2002 05:47 AM: TiamatRoar: Now that you mentioned it though, what is the tier ranking for Kula and Co.? The tiers suggest they are at Tier 6, but it seems that they're stronger than that. I think they're around Tier 5 or 4. By the way, since we are comparing fighting game characters, how about we compare those in like genres (i.e. RPG, action, etc.)? Of course, it would skew it towards Capcom, who has more variety in their games, but maybe we could compare them in other ways other than who has the more powerful characters. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:16:2002 07:29 AM: I don't know how we could even get started in that direction. There's not much else we can compare other than fighting franchises, and even then, comparisons between games like MegaMan and Metal Slug might not have a purpose because they follow completely different themes. And Capcom simply has more franchises spanning across different genres than SNK, whose main focus has always been set on the fighting genre. Posted by Psycho Power J on 04:16:2002 07:43 AM: Good point. We'll just stick with fighting games then. Are we going to include characters from 3d games too? I wouldn't mind having a few. Of course, games like Tech Romancer are out. Mechas shouldn't be included. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:16:2002 09:54 AM: Hell yeah they can be included, as long as the 3D games they come from are not too bizarre of course. I've already brought Rival Schools and Star Gladiator into the mix. I'm still trying to sort through the list and see which SNK characters I can pair each of them with. So far I got Kyosuke with Benimaru and Hayato with Haohmaru. Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:16:2002 05:30 PM: By the way, since we are comparing fighting game characters, how about we compare those in like genres (i.e. RPG, action, etc.)? Of course, it would skew it towards Capcom, who has more variety in their games, but maybe we could compare them in other ways other than who has the more powerful characters. This sounds like a very good idea to me. Psycho Power J TiamatRoar: Now that you mentioned it though, what is the tier ranking for Kula and Co.? The tiers suggest they are at Tier 6, but it seems that they're stronger than that. I think they're around Tier 5 or 4. I feel Kula and Foxy should be tier four (Kula due to her energy projection and Foxy due to her fighting ability and some of the inherent advantages of her style) and that Diana should be tier five. Diana seems like she would be pretty powerful but she's still been mainly on the sidelines so I can't say. Candy I think would be in place on tier six though. Grenade Falcon I don't know how we could even get started in that direction. There's not much else we can compare other than fighting franchises, and even then, comparisons between games like MegaMan and Metal Slug might not have a purpose because they follow completely different themes. And Capcom simply has more franchises spanning across different genres than SNK, whose main focus has always been set on the fighting genre. Actually despite having been making games constantly since 1978 SNK didn't start making fighting games until they did Street Smart in 1989. Even the Neo Geo MVS hardware didn't receive a fighting game until it was already out for a year (it's first generation games being strictly in the action/shooter/puzzle arena). Also take into account that the core Ikari Warriors and Psycho Soldiers cast are not from fighting games. This is in addition to the console only non-fighting games SNK has made along with characters from their earlier arcade games. Given time I could possibly try to draw up a match between some of the Resident Evil cast and the SAR crew, or, say, pre Captain Commando Super Joe and Rad Spencer against Iron Snake and Firebird, Naomi and Kaoru Yamazaki vs. The Unknown Soldier and Hyperdine Sidearms, Roddy and Cathy vs. Lou and Siva/Shiba, etc. I've already brought Rival Schools and Star Gladiator into the mix. Prepare to face the wrath of Ultima. Posted by Psycho Power J on 04:16:2002 06:52 PM: I was thinking of what would happened if Capcom and SNK made an RPG with characters from both companies, kind of like Kingdom Heart. It would make for an interesting game. I forgot one game. How about Jotaro vs. someone else? I was wondering how the ones with Stands would fair against the rest. Prepare to face the wrath of Ultima. Ph33r Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:16:2002 07:03 PM: Do JJBA characters count as Capcom? I know that Capcom is the only ones that ever used the JJBA series license as video games in recent times, but in the end, they still belong to Luckyland and not Capcom... I'm wondering how SNK characters (or any character, for that matter) will be able to defeat something that they can't even hurt or even SEE (storyline-wise, only stand users can see stands, and only stands can hurt other stands) Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:16:2002 07:05 PM: Jotaro/ The Jojo's Bizarre Adventure manga and anime were not made by Capcom though. Besides we all know Dio's steam roller of doom super makes him the best! I mean we COULD bring licensed games but that would give SNK not only Joe Yabuki, but Lee Trevino from Lee Trevino's Fighting Golf. Normally golf players are not par for the course ( ) in fighting games but this is Lee Trevino's Fighting Golf so obviously Geese/Akuma/Gill/Orochi/Goenitz/Bison are all cowering in fear at the mere mention of it. Edit: SNK did make an RPG with SNK and Capcom "characters" in it called SNK vs. Capcom: Card Fighters Clash! Name me one other game where you get to talk with Nishi and Akiman, play cards with the Resident Evil designers, and go into a store stocked with nothing but Forgotten Worlds merchendise. Posted by Psycho Power J on 04:16:2002 07:12 PM: Damn, I'd really like to see whether Iggy can beat Ryu. Seeing a dog be stronger than the Tier 2 people would be a laugh. Okay, scratch that. How about Vector vs. Candy then? I'd give this one to Vector. He has a gun. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:16:2002 07:22 PM: Actually despite having been making games constantly since 1978 SNK didn't start making fighting games until they did Street Smart in 1989. Even the Neo Geo MVS hardware didn't receive a fighting game until it was already out for a year (it's first generation games being strictly in the action/shooter/puzzle arena). Also take into account that the core Ikari Warriors and Psycho Soldiers cast are not from fighting games. This is in addition to the console only non-fighting games SNK has made along with characters from their earlier arcade games. Given time I could possibly try to draw up a match between some of the Resident Evil cast and the SAR crew, or, say, pre Captain Commando Super Joe and Rad Spencer against Iron Snake and Firebird, Naomi and Kaoru Yamazaki vs. The Unknown Soldier and Hyperdine Sidearms, Roddy and Cathy vs. Lou and Siva/Shiba, etc. Yeah I knew that much, but it seems that fighting games became their main focus since they started making them. Matching SNK's earlier games with Capcom's earlier work would be a difficult task because there aren't that many who are familiar with them, not to mention they've become harder to find over time. And since their more recent non-fighting games follow completely different themes, matching them would seem like preparing another Vs. game, which of course would not be too evenly matched at all. If you still want to give it a shot though, then that's fine. I'd be interested to see any ideal match-ups you can think of among them. I was thinking of what would happened if Capcom and SNK made an RPG with characters from both companies, kind of like Kingdom Heart. It would make for an interesting game. Yeah Cap and SNK putting their franchises together for games other than fighting would be a nice change. Imagine a remake of Onimusha with Samurai Shodown characters instead. Ahhhh, that could draw in a nice profit. Posted by Lantis on 04:17:2002 01:23 AM: *scene of new CvS game: CAPCOM VS. SNK FIGHTING GOLF!* *Ryu and Kyo walk up to the hole 12 course. Ryu looks pretty cool about things, but Kyo is mad pissed and looks like he's going to bash someone in the head with his club. Of course, the caddy is no other than Dan Hibiki for Ryu, and Shingo for Kyo* Kyo: SHIT!!! This damn golf game is so friggin' BORING! Why should *I* walk hundreds of feet just to chase a ball *I* hit??? I would rather be at home with Yuki playing DDR, DAMMIT! Ryu: Calm down, Kyo! I think we should make the most of this experience. It's a totally new world for me. Surely a lot of competence can come from this event! I can feel the fighting spirit within me run wild... Kyo: HUH? Shut up already with that damn "everything's fine" attitude! Ya Sesame Street fanboy! Now, shut your trap and hit that goddamn ball already! Ryu: OK... Here goes....SHINKUUUUUU....SWIIIIIIIIIIIIING! *With great force, Ryu strikes the ball so hard, it flies way off to the beach area* Dan: SHIT! That crap was just RUSHED down!!!! Ryu: Oops! Missed again... : Kyo: NO SHIT! You just hit that boat.... Ryu: Gripe! That must be Ken's boat... Kyo: Uh-oh...it's sinking... Ryu: Do you think he's gonna be mad? I think it's annoying enough that he always keep challenging me for pointless manners.... Kyo: Well, at least you don't have a mad-ass red haired punk who has a dubious last name chasing down your butt for free...ah, anyways, I guess it's my turn... *Kyo flames the club* Kyo: KURAE...........I'M THE GAME!!! *pun of YAGARE! intended* *Ryu and Kyo stare in awe at where the ball hit* Shingo: Oh, no! Mr. Kusanagi, you killed that dude over there at the hole! You just blasted a hole in his Nike-ass! Dan: SHIT! That was TIGER WOODS! You conceited fool! Ryu: Oh my...and to think you blowed Jack Nicklaus' head off on the last hole. Kyo: Well, who asked him to be so damn GOOD????? He deserved a candy ass beating! Ryu: Uh-oh.... Kyo: Looks like the crowd's pissed.... Ryu: Should we consider a hasty retreat? Kyo: NO SHIT EINSTEIN! Get the fuck out of here, before we get the "Infinite Justice" treatment!!!!! *Everyone runs away like the devil* Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:18:2002 09:11 AM: JUST ADDED SOMETHING NEW TO THE THREAD....... You may now take any intro that's in CvS, CvS2 and SvC: MOTM and share your idea of a good scenario behind it. For instance: Chun-Li vs. Yamazaki Hon Fu is working on a case with Chun-Li to track down Yamazaki. As they find him, Yamazaki stares Chun-Li down and has an urge to make her bleed. Hon Fu tells Chun-Li to stay back so that he may fight him, but instead gets his ass whipped and runs away from the scene. or Guile vs. Rugal Guile hears of a connection between Bison and Rugal and tracks them down. Rugal sees Guile's potential in a fight and decides to put him in his collection of fallen opponents. Guile finds Rugal with a statue sculpted to look exactly like how Rugtal wants him displayed in his collection. Rugal threatens him, and then they both destroy the statue. If you'd like to put your creativity at work, you can take any pair-up mentioned in this thread and create an intro with a behind-the-scenes scenario that best explains it. And now for all newcomers, here’s a list of all the match-ups mentioned so far. In no particular order: SF/RS/FF/ - KOF/FF/AOF Ryu and Kyo Ryu and Ryo Ryu and Terry Ken and Terry Ken and Robert Cody and Terry Alex and K’ Chun-Li and Mai Chun-Li and Blue Mary Cammy and Blue Mary Mai and Maki Guy and Andy Zangief and Raiden Dan and Joe Dan and Ryo Sagat and Joe Sagat and King Sagat and Krauser Adon and Joe Adon and King Bison and Geese Bison and Rugal Yun/Yang and Dong Hwan/Jae Hoon Rose and Chizuru Sakura and Yuri Sakura and Athena Sakura and Shingo Shingo and Sean Ibuki and Hokutomaru Dudley and Rick Strowd T.Hawk and The Griffon Mask Guile and Clark Charlie and Ralf Makoto and Li Xiangfei Birdie and Chang Hugo and Chang Balrog and Heavy D! Yamazaki and Vega Kyosuke and Benimaru Vega and Benimaru Vega and Billy Kane SnH Ryu and RoB Iori Gen and Yamazaki R. Mika and Raiden Birdie and Billy Kane Kurow and Kim Iori and Akuma Kyo and Akuma Hinata and Athena Hinata and Shingo Cammy and Yamazaki Hayato (Rival Schools) and Brian Battler(?)/Lucky Ibuki and Hanzo Ibuki and Galford Dhalsim and Chizuru Chun-Li and Chang/Choi Chun-Li and Kim Yun/Yang and Kim Yun/Yang and Yamazaki Gen and Lee Pai Long Heidern and Rolento Q and K'9999 {} Necro and K'9999 { } Twelve and K'9999 { } Urien and Krizalid Gen and Tung Fu Rue DS/SG – SS/LB Morrigan and Nakoruru Felicia and Cham-Cham Haohmaru and Hayato Shikyo Mukuro and Lord Raptor Demitri and Shinnosuke Kagami Demitri and Setsuna Basara and Hsien-Ko Bishamon and Haohmaru Setsuna and Bishamon Jon Talbain and Shigen Jon Talbain and Hanzo/Galford Donovan and Asra MISC........... Gill and Amakusa Kurow and Galford Blanka and Cham-Cham Blanka and Tam-Tam Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:18:2002 09:19 AM: Neo-Rasa: I have some things to ask about the DS/LB/SS matchups that you made. I'm just curious. Shikyo Mukuro and Lord Raptor I haven't played LB before, so how are these two alike? How do Mukuro's abilities compare to Lord Raptor's? I know Mukuro is like Setsuna because he once died and was raised from the dead in his own corpse, but that's about it. Demitri and Shinnosuke Kagami Why are these two paired together? Basara and Hsien-Ko Why these two? EDIT: Also, do you think Setsuna would take a dislike to all things that are "undead" like Demitri, and not just humans? Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:18:2002 05:47 PM: Demitri and Shinnosuke Kagami Kagami is one of four guardians (on this side of existance) to the gate to hell. He personally falls from grace and decides that humanity is unworthy of existing, so he starts working towards opening the gate and letting all manner of crap through to destroy us. Of the four guardians he represents the Phoenix and is the most literally eternal out of the four (his ending even showing his weapon reappearing in modern day Japan). He's also the most stylish of the four guardians in his mannerism, with his name almost literally meaning "grand gentleman." I do believe he actually reforms and becomes a good guy (as far as neutral demi-gods go) in his ending though. So, let's say this particular incident is set a little in the future past the LB/DS/KoF/etc. storylines. You could have Demitri getting bored with things in Makai and deciding that he wants to try to conquer the human realm, so he awakens Kagami (though by proxy this would invariably bring the remaining guardians back into action too) to help him blow open the gate again so that he'll have access to a whole new army of spirits and demons and what-not, but Kagami, still reformed of his "evil" ways will have none of this. So the conflict goes on. Depending on whether or not he feels Demitri's ambition is representative of the entire population of Makai he may even try to go there to cause more chaos and destruction, ironically not changing his beliefs or methods at all, but their direction simply not being pointed at us anymore so he'd be considered "good." Basara and Hsien-Ko Because they're similar yet different at the same time, the reason or any great pair up! I'm not going to run down Hsien-Ko's life story but here's some information about Kubikiri Basara: He has blue skin. He's a ghost fighting to get revenge over the death of his wife so that her spirit can rest in peace. He and his lover were both killed by Zankuro Minazuki (another sword demon, guess there's a real reason for the Japanese versions being called Samurai Spirits after all besides half the cast being based on real people). His weapon is a discarmer like Shikyo Murkuro's but he uses a few more "supernatural" moves in his style. Also, do you think Setsuna would take a dislike to all things that are "undead" like Demitri, and not just humans? From what I can tell Setsuna hates everything that isn't Setsuna. Ironically his reasons are childish and belie the adult form he's aged his physical body to. Again I really think playing the games involving these characters would be helpful. Shikyo Murkuro and Shinosuke Kagami both fortunately appear in Last Blade 2, the US version of which can be found on the Dreamcast or $10~$30 (or rented if you find a place that carries it, Blockbuster Video is useful in this case, they're the only rental place in this area at least that's carrying KoF99 for the PSX, etc.). A rom of Samurai Shodown III can be obtained by contacting me outside of this board if you wish as well. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:19:2002 07:46 AM: From what I can tell Setsuna hates everything that isn't Setsuna. Ironically his reasons are childish and belie the adult form he's aged his physical body to. I find that a little hard to believe. If he hated everything, then what's with the owl? Again I really think playing the games involving these characters would be helpful. Shikyo Murkuro and Shinosuke Kagami both fortunately appear in Last Blade 2, the US version of which can be found on the Dreamcast or $10~$30 (or rented if you find a place that carries it, Blockbuster Video is useful in this case, they're the only rental place in this area at least that's carrying KoF99 for the PSX, etc.). A rom of Samurai Shodown III can be obtained by contacting me outside of this board if you wish as well. This is the first time I heard they released Last Blade 2 in the US, so I'll try to look for it. I've been playing Basara the most in Samurai Shodown 4, and I kinda know what his story is. I just didn't how he could be similar to Hsien-Ko other than the fact that they're both dead. And um, I'm not really into roms. Posted by Neo Rasa on 04:20:2002 12:14 AM: I find that a little hard to believe. If he hated everything, then what's with the owl? I can picture him just about to kill it, but then it brings his scabbard back to him so he let it live for the sole purpose of taking away/returning his scabbard before and after the fight. This is the first time I heard they released Last Blade 2 in the US, so I'll try to look for it. It's been out in the US for about a year so I don't know how easy it will be to find, but if you don't mind ordering things online it (and Fatal Fury: Mark of the Wolves) can be obtained at www.agetec.com. Mind you though, if you import that about Garou and LB2 are getting rereleased at a bargain price. IMO LB2 is one of the few games where the blood contributes to the atmosphere because of how artistically it spurts and splashes during certain moves. That combined with the superior hit sound effects is what makes the general lack of music in the game bearable so you may want to consider importing it. I've been playing Basara the most in Samurai Shodown 4, and I kinda know what his story is. I just didn't how he could be similar to Hsien-Ko other than the fact that they're both dead. Blue skin. I mean c'mon, Capcom/SNK probably matched Yuri with Bulleta just because they're both female so I don't think it's that big a stretch. And um, I'm not really into roms. A shame. I despise piracy of recent games but the emulation of older titles IMO should be a requirement for all gamers. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:21:2002 12:25 AM: And yet, SOMETHING NEW HAS BEEN ADDED TO THE THREAD AGAIN. Now you can take any Capcom or SNK character that's NOT in CvS2 and state your opinions on how they would perform if they were implemented into the game; as in, how you think that character would suck as a result of immense tweaking, or how the character would benefit greatly under that particular Capcom engine. You can also compare the existing CvS2 characters to their old Cap/SNK incarnations. Posted by Benor on 04:22:2002 03:10 PM: Terry vs. Ryu match-up: this afternoon. And thank you for the article that was posted; I disagree with the reason for Ryu winning, but only now. At the time, I think it was valid. Posted by Hcparker on 04:26:2002 03:09 AM: Terry vs. Ryu, would be an excellent, tightly contested fight. Terry is stronger but Ryu is likely quicker. I don't think Self Doubt has anything to do with it, more like overall concentration level. Ryu is simply more mentally stable then Terry in a fight and would likely win that way. Posted by sano on 04:26:2002 08:15 PM: On the Article about Ryu vs. Terry - The guy who wrote the second part of the article also wrote Terry's Psychological profile and beleived that Terry would doubt himself due to his tragic past. I think that the first guy was right, and the fight would end in a tie or very close. I'll try to transcribe that part on Monday, although be warned that a lot of that info is dead wrong. Posted by Hcparker on 04:26:2002 08:28 PM: quote: Originally posted by sano On the Article about Ryu vs. Terry - The guy who wrote the second part of the article also wrote Terry's Psychological profile and beleived that Terry would doubt himself due to his tragic past. I think that the first guy was right, and the fight would end in a tie or very close. I'll try to transcribe that part on Monday, although be warned that a lot of that info is dead wrong. Terry's problem really isn't one of confidence it's more like one of reckless. Terry is more prone to losing his temper and acting recklessly then Ryu is. Posted by sano on 04:26:2002 08:41 PM: Hcparker - You're right. I totally agree. Posted by sano on 04:26:2002 09:40 PM: Another match up I'd like to see is Benimaru vs. Blanka. Why would they fight? Maybe Blanka gets mad at Benimaru for blowing a kiss at his momma! I think Benimaru's winning, but there's gonna be enough electricity being thrown around to black out Southtown and Metro City! Well, maybe not, but it'll be fun! Posted by Hcparker on 04:26:2002 11:26 PM: quote: Originally posted by sano Another match up I'd like to see is Benimaru vs. Blanka. Why would they fight? Maybe Blanka gets mad at Benimaru for blowing a kiss at his momma! I think Benimaru's winning, but there's gonna be enough electricity being thrown around to black out Southtown and Metro City! Well, maybe not, but it'll be fun! A better reason: Benimaru is trying to impress a girl by defeating the 'savage beast' that is Blanka. I see Benimaru wiping the floor with Blanka. Urien on the other hand would cream Beni in seconds. All times are GMT. The time now is 01:26 AM. Show all 173 posts from this thread on one page Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.4 Copyright © Jelsoft Enterprises Limited 2000, 2001.